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Do you have data points to disprove it? I'm not aware of any data on how often police engage in physical altercations with civilians. One of the points the arti

Do you have data points to disprove it? I'm not aware of any data on how often police engage in physical altercations with civilians. One of the points the article makes is that the NYPD actively misrepresents such altercations that could cast the department in a bad light. Stop and frisk policies amount to codifying assault, in my opinion.

throwaway_jobs 6y ago
As to murder: White Murder victims: 3,499 (2,854 of the victims were killed by other whites) Black murder victims: 2,870 (2,570 of the victims were killed by other blacks) 2019 police killings by race: White deceased: 370 Black deceased: 235
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- kilburn 6y ago
  You are playing a dangerous game here. The above poster said: > from their point of view the police are the people most likely to assault or kill them or their children on the street, more so than random criminals Leaving the "more so than criminals" part out of it: - By your numbers, 10% of the killings are done by police officers. - Police officers account for much less than 10% of the population. Hence, a random police officer is much more likely to kill you than a random person. Now, the "more so than random criminals" part is much harder to pin down. Anyway, you can't know whether someone is a criminal or not just by seeing them on the street, so I don't even see a point in trying.
  - collyw 6y ago
    When it comes to violet criminals you can filter down a fair bit by age and gender.
  - throwaway_jobs 6y ago
    > - By your numbers, 10% of the killings are done by police officers. - Police officers account for much less than 10% of the population. Hence, a random police officer is much more likely to kill you than a random person. It’s odd you would say I’m playing a dangerous game...we are talking about murder, and if you or a loved one is murdered there is a 90% chance you will be murdered by a non-LEO. Not to mention we are playing a dangerous game by converting all justified police killings to murder.
  - jonfw 6y ago
    The point being made was your kid is more likely to be endangered by police than random criminals. Your math here isn't really attempting to prove or disprove that point, instead you're talking about likelihood of police vs average american. That's a pretty uncontroversial statement you just made, as police engage in a much more dangerous line of work than your average american.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- hinkley 6y ago
  First, the fact that you are only 10 times more likely to die from a civilian as from a police officer is an appallingly bad ratio. That ratio should be over 100:1, not 10:1, and certainly not 9:1. This conversation is missing another statistic: The percent of citizens who are also LEOs, which I'm seeing is about 1 in 300. Which means your chances of dying during an encounter with a random civilian are about 30 times less than your chance of dying during an encounter with a LEO. I cannot begin to express how deeply fucked up that is. Your chances of encountering a bear in the woods are very low, but once you have done so, your focus should be almost entirely on the bear until the interaction has resolved itself. Any training you had should be employed. You should try to educate any hiking friends just in case they find themselves in such a situation. Cops should not be a situation. They should not be like bears.
  - creato 6y ago
    This is comparing murder to every instance of police killing someone, justified or not. Police murdering someone is much more rare. The ratio you are talking about probably is in fact well over 100:1.
    - lostlogin 6y ago
      When you have been given the right to kill people without legal consequence, the distinction become rather hard to make. There have been a lot of unwarranted killings by police that seem to have gone unpunished, how do you chalk those up?
      - jonfw 6y ago
        If the goal is to make a factual argument, then the facts are that the # of police murders is less than the # of police killings, because some portion of those killings are justifiable. Where we draw the line is debatable, but the person you were responding to wasn't really attempting to draw a line.
    - throwaway_jobs 6y ago
      I don’t know about the ratio being 100:1, but You are right these are Classified police killings not murders...that said, also consider George Floyd’s death was on track to be swept under the rug as a Justified police Killing until the protests.
- janjiblack 6y ago
  So by those numbers for the population involved: (2019 population numbers) Whites killed by other whites: 1 per ~87982 Blacks killed by other blacks: 1 per ~17114 (2018 employed cop numbers) Whites killed by cops: 1 per ~1855 Blacks killed by cops: 1 per ~2921 Numbers only say so much though
  - 49para 6y ago
    Is it fair to compare population numbers versus deaths per arrest ?
- lostlogin 6y ago
  Can you provide a source? That number of killings is a lot lower than any source I have seen (and the police reporting of deaths they are involved with is very problematic). Hispanics are killed at a disproportionate rate, and blacks are killed at a vastly disproportionate rate - according to the below blacks are killed at twice the rate of whites. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/polic...
- philjohn 6y ago
  And 12.1% of the population - which makes just pasting numbers meaningless. Much better is number per 100,000 so that you can compare like with like.
  - throwaway_jobs 6y ago
    The point being addressed was fear of murder/assault From officers being a primary concern over fear of murder/assault from non-officers...I think we want to look at absolute numbers, you are either going to be murdered or you aren’t and assuming every single police killing was a murder 90% of murders are committed by non-officers. Why would we need to look at how many murders per 100,000?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > Few people ever speak of the 150[1] officers killed on average per year in the line of duty. If by “few people” you mean basically everyone, and every business, and every government everytime it happens, often with massive public memorial parades, etc., sure. No one talks about lack of accountability for it because there is decidedly not such a lack of accountability, but people talk about the thing itself all the time. Incidentally, abolishing the police also addresses that problem.
  - variaga 6y ago
    https://247wallst.com/special-report/2020/01/21/25-most-dangerous-jobs-in-america-3/6/ https://247wallst.com/special-report/2020/01/21/25-most-dang... Being a police officer is less dangerous than logging, fishing, flying an airplane, collecting trash, being an electrician, delivery driver, lawn maintenance, roofing, ... <7 other job categories>. Why is it okay for cops to kill people because they're "scared" when it's not okay for people in any of those other jobs to do so?
    - nec4b 6y ago
      Who exactly should the fisherman, logger or law maintenance guy kill?
bloak 6y ago
Nit: The expression "physical altercation" does not make sense because an "altercation" is an exchange of words. Perhaps what you mean is something like "unwanted physical contact", if we can interpret that expression to include shooting someone but not include first aid to an unconscious person, which I think we probably can with a bit of common sense.
- jakelazaroff 6y ago
  An "altercation" just means an argument.

throwaway_jobs 6y ago

As to murder: White Murder victims: 3,499 (2,854 of the victims were killed by other whites) Black murder victims: 2,870 (2,570 of the victims were killed by other blacks) 2019 police killings by race: White deceased: 370 Black deceased: 235

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
kilburn 6y ago
You are playing a dangerous game here. The above poster said: > from their point of view the police are the people most likely to assault or kill them or their children on the street, more so than random criminals Leaving the "more so than criminals" part out of it: - By your numbers, 10% of the killings are done by police officers. - Police officers account for much less than 10% of the population. Hence, a random police officer is much more likely to kill you than a random person. Now, the "more so than random criminals" part is much harder to pin down. Anyway, you can't know whether someone is a criminal or not just by seeing them on the street, so I don't even see a point in trying.
- collyw 6y ago
  When it comes to violet criminals you can filter down a fair bit by age and gender.
- throwaway_jobs 6y ago
  > - By your numbers, 10% of the killings are done by police officers. - Police officers account for much less than 10% of the population. Hence, a random police officer is much more likely to kill you than a random person. It’s odd you would say I’m playing a dangerous game...we are talking about murder, and if you or a loved one is murdered there is a 90% chance you will be murdered by a non-LEO. Not to mention we are playing a dangerous game by converting all justified police killings to murder.
- jonfw 6y ago
  The point being made was your kid is more likely to be endangered by police than random criminals. Your math here isn't really attempting to prove or disprove that point, instead you're talking about likelihood of police vs average american. That's a pretty uncontroversial statement you just made, as police engage in a much more dangerous line of work than your average american.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
hinkley 6y ago
First, the fact that you are only 10 times more likely to die from a civilian as from a police officer is an appallingly bad ratio. That ratio should be over 100:1, not 10:1, and certainly not 9:1. This conversation is missing another statistic: The percent of citizens who are also LEOs, which I'm seeing is about 1 in 300. Which means your chances of dying during an encounter with a random civilian are about 30 times less than your chance of dying during an encounter with a LEO. I cannot begin to express how deeply fucked up that is. Your chances of encountering a bear in the woods are very low, but once you have done so, your focus should be almost entirely on the bear until the interaction has resolved itself. Any training you had should be employed. You should try to educate any hiking friends just in case they find themselves in such a situation. Cops should not be a situation. They should not be like bears.
- creato 6y ago
  This is comparing murder to every instance of police killing someone, justified or not. Police murdering someone is much more rare. The ratio you are talking about probably is in fact well over 100:1.
  - lostlogin 6y ago
    When you have been given the right to kill people without legal consequence, the distinction become rather hard to make. There have been a lot of unwarranted killings by police that seem to have gone unpunished, how do you chalk those up?
    - jonfw 6y ago
      If the goal is to make a factual argument, then the facts are that the # of police murders is less than the # of police killings, because some portion of those killings are justifiable. Where we draw the line is debatable, but the person you were responding to wasn't really attempting to draw a line.
  - throwaway_jobs 6y ago
    I don’t know about the ratio being 100:1, but You are right these are Classified police killings not murders...that said, also consider George Floyd’s death was on track to be swept under the rug as a Justified police Killing until the protests.
janjiblack 6y ago
So by those numbers for the population involved: (2019 population numbers) Whites killed by other whites: 1 per ~87982 Blacks killed by other blacks: 1 per ~17114 (2018 employed cop numbers) Whites killed by cops: 1 per ~1855 Blacks killed by cops: 1 per ~2921 Numbers only say so much though
- 49para 6y ago
  Is it fair to compare population numbers versus deaths per arrest ?
lostlogin 6y ago
Can you provide a source? That number of killings is a lot lower than any source I have seen (and the police reporting of deaths they are involved with is very problematic). Hispanics are killed at a disproportionate rate, and blacks are killed at a vastly disproportionate rate - according to the below blacks are killed at twice the rate of whites. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/polic...
philjohn 6y ago
And 12.1% of the population - which makes just pasting numbers meaningless. Much better is number per 100,000 so that you can compare like with like.
- throwaway_jobs 6y ago
  The point being addressed was fear of murder/assault From officers being a primary concern over fear of murder/assault from non-officers...I think we want to look at absolute numbers, you are either going to be murdered or you aren’t and assuming every single police killing was a murder 90% of murders are committed by non-officers. Why would we need to look at how many murders per 100,000?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > Few people ever speak of the 150[1] officers killed on average per year in the line of duty. If by “few people” you mean basically everyone, and every business, and every government everytime it happens, often with massive public memorial parades, etc., sure. No one talks about lack of accountability for it because there is decidedly not such a lack of accountability, but people talk about the thing itself all the time. Incidentally, abolishing the police also addresses that problem.
- variaga 6y ago
  https://247wallst.com/special-report/2020/01/21/25-most-dangerous-jobs-in-america-3/6/ https://247wallst.com/special-report/2020/01/21/25-most-dang... Being a police officer is less dangerous than logging, fishing, flying an airplane, collecting trash, being an electrician, delivery driver, lawn maintenance, roofing, ... <7 other job categories>. Why is it okay for cops to kill people because they're "scared" when it's not okay for people in any of those other jobs to do so?
  - nec4b 6y ago
    Who exactly should the fisherman, logger or law maintenance guy kill?

bloak 6y ago

Nit: The expression "physical altercation" does not make sense because an "altercation" is an exchange of words. Perhaps what you mean is something like "unwanted physical contact", if we can interpret that expression to include shooting someone but not include first aid to an unconscious person, which I think we probably can with a bit of common sense.

jakelazaroff 6y ago
An "altercation" just means an argument.