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> calling yourself "communist" or even just agitating for democratic control over means of production is enough to be "canceled" in the sense that most large em

> calling yourself "communist" or even just agitating for democratic control over means of production is enough to be "canceled" in the sense that most large employers will be wary to higher you and our mainstream media will lump you in with Stalin. calling yourself 'nazi' will have the same consequences, so I don't see what is the problem here, communism is every step as bad as nazism (source: born in USSR)

Consultant32452 6y ago
It's simply not true that communists are canceled. The media regularly openly supports the CCP. The most popular politician in our country as of a couple years ago was open socialist Bernie Sanders. Wearing a swastika is an insta-cancel. Wearing a hammer and sickle gets you a "I wouldn't vote for that guy... maybe."
- igorkraw 6y ago
  Well, one symbol is inherently tied to racial purity politics, the other is a symbol which was used by communists both before and after the atrocities committed by Stalin/Lenin/etc. Is that not a difference?
  - Consultant32452 6y ago
    I'm going to grant you every inch of that. Now please give me an example of a public person who went so far left that they were canceled and are no longer welcome in polite conversation.
    - igorkraw 6y ago
      I answered you in two replies already, but you will have to define "polite conversation" for this one to make sense. Anyone on the left who calls for or hints at purges in the same way that white nationalists do doesn't even make it onto the national stage. If you define "cancelled" as "losing their job and getting persecuted" then how about Colin Kapernick, for protesting police brutality by kneeling, and the worker who was (most likely illegally) fire by Amazon for pushing for unionisation amidst COVID19? And being up Bernie Sanders name in "polite" democratic circles, let's see how supportive they are. Reality is, the far left doesn't get cancelled as much because their popular ideas generally involve democratic control over the means of production and treating everyone like a human being, not revolution, while the far rights "popular" ideas are racism, sexism and the disenfranchisement of the "proles". One of these inherently requires authoritarianism, the other doesn't.
- EamonnMR 6y ago
  I would say that there is a wide gulf between wanting to make sure people have healthcare (Sanders's big position) and the violent revolution and subsequent authoritarianism that Communism tends to require.
  - Consultant32452 6y ago
    I feel like all of this is avoiding the point. If there is such a place on the left that is "too far left" that you will be insta-canceled, what is it? Please provide an example of this happening to a public figure.
    - igorkraw 6y ago
      1. People tried to cancel Bernie Sanders, it just didn't work https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/01/15/bernie-sanderss-agenda-makes-him-definition-unelectable/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/01/15/bernie-sa... 2. Not a single person who openly advocates Stalinism or similar forceful collectivisation makes it onto the national stage. Meanwhile Richard Spencer was so "cancelled" that he continued to interviewed on national TV 3. In Germany and Europe, most communist parties are under observation by the constitutional secret service, despite being democratic parties 4. In the US, Colin Kapernick was cancelled by the NFL for kneeling to protest police brutality Leftist positions, as it turns out, are much less inherently tied to authoritarianism than Nazi ideology. Thus, you often see people advocating for democratic socialism on the national stage, but not for Stalinism and a violent revolution. The latter of which immediately gets them cancelled before they become much of a public figure
      - Consultant32452 6y ago
        1. Suggesting Bernie is "too far left" to get elected President is not canceling. Being forced to resign out of office in disgrace is a canceling. James Damore was a nobody with no power who was put under the national spotlight and canceled spectacularly. Rosanne Barr was canceled. 2. Richard Spencer has not been canceled because he went too far left. 3. So not a single person then. 4. Is Kapernick far left? I actually see people supporting leftist authoritarians openly pretty regularly. I already provided some pop culture examples elsewhere... AOC tweeted Marx's labor theory of value. Bernie openly supported the USSR (even honeymooned there), Cuba, Venezuela, and is an open socialist. I see people wearing Che Guevera shirts walking down the street.
- JohnBooty 6y ago
  It's simply not true that communists are canceled. The media regularly openly supports the CCP. The most popular politician in our country as of a couple years ago was open socialist Bernie Sanders Whoa, whoa, whoa. Communism != Socialism Each of these terms have been applied to a wide variety of beliefs and practices. Nobody owns these terms, but even Marx himself drew a sharp distinction between the two. "Communism" is a system in which the state owns everything and resources are, theoretically, fairly and equally distributed to the people. In practice, this has never worked out well, and very few folks view communism as a realistic solution today. "Socialism" refers to a much wider range of ideas. Broadly speaking, any redistribution of wealth is "socialism" and this would include collecting taxes and using them to build a public library, roads, or fund schooling for children. In practice, just about every nation on Earth is a blend of socialism and capitalism. In a truly free-market/capitalist society with zero traces of socialism, the government would provide almost literally nothing except for perhaps border defense. Canada and the UK are capitalist, but lean farther toward socialism (with their nationalized healthcare, etc) than the USA. When a modern American politician like Sanders or AOC advocates for "socialism", this is what they mean. Unlike communism, socialism works. It's just a question of how much of it you want. Even your most "socialist" politicians in the USA don't advocate the abolition of private property, and even the most libertarian politicians don't advocate the total dismantling of the federal government. It is also very important to understand that socialism is utterly compatible with democratic elections. Just as you could have a capitalist nation ruled by a dictator, you can have have a socialist nation with democratic elections. A nation's method of choosing leaders is almost entirely orthogonal to how it structures its economy.
  - Consultant32452 6y ago
    The communist bit refers to the CCP, the Chinese Communist Party. Neither communists or socialists are canceled, there is no limit. People who go too far right are canceled.
    - JohnBooty 6y ago
      China's not remotely communist. It's socialist. CCP has "communist" in the name, but this is more of a historical artifact than anything. Rule of thumb with political parties and countries is that their actual names have little to do with reality -- witness all of the dictatorships that have had "Democratic" in their names over the years. Democratic Republic of the Congo springs to mind. And of course North Korea, officially the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (lol)
igorkraw 6y ago
There is a difference between communist and Stalinist/Leninist though. Calling yourself a nationalist Vs a Nazi seems to warrant that distinction in most countries
- kofejnik 6y ago
  > There is a difference between communist and Stalinist/Leninist though only to communists, maybe. From where I stand, Leninism/Stalinism/Trotskism/other -ism are all extreme totalitarian ideologies
  - igorkraw 6y ago
    And would you accept the same grouping of capitalism, American libertarianism and fascism or would you prefer people actually pay attention to nuances?
    - kofejnik 6y ago
      since all real-world outcomes of communism have been consistently horrible, and since communists killed several of my ancestors - no, I am not going to look for nuances. If nazis should be punched, so should communists. Maybe if North Korea suddenly turns into actual paradise, I'll reconsider.
      - igorkraw 6y ago
        all real world outcomes of communism? Really? China being a dominant super power? I disagree with the regime, yeah, but that's a pretty black and white statement there. The left spectrum stretches as wide as the right-wing one, and communism has influenced all of them ideologically via socialism and social democracy or directly via unions. MLK was a socialist. So was Einstein. Would you stick to your statement?
        kofejnik 6y ago
        Love your China example! Germany under Hitler also was a dominant superpower, if you forgot. So you just reinforced my point that communism is a totalitarian aggressive ideology, pretty similar to Nazism. So yeah, _all_ real world outcomes, definitely

Consultant32452 6y ago

It's simply not true that communists are canceled. The media regularly openly supports the CCP. The most popular politician in our country as of a couple years ago was open socialist Bernie Sanders. Wearing a swastika is an insta-cancel. Wearing a hammer and sickle gets you a "I wouldn't vote for that guy... maybe."

igorkraw 6y ago
Well, one symbol is inherently tied to racial purity politics, the other is a symbol which was used by communists both before and after the atrocities committed by Stalin/Lenin/etc. Is that not a difference?
- Consultant32452 6y ago
  I'm going to grant you every inch of that. Now please give me an example of a public person who went so far left that they were canceled and are no longer welcome in polite conversation.
  - igorkraw 6y ago
    I answered you in two replies already, but you will have to define "polite conversation" for this one to make sense. Anyone on the left who calls for or hints at purges in the same way that white nationalists do doesn't even make it onto the national stage. If you define "cancelled" as "losing their job and getting persecuted" then how about Colin Kapernick, for protesting police brutality by kneeling, and the worker who was (most likely illegally) fire by Amazon for pushing for unionisation amidst COVID19? And being up Bernie Sanders name in "polite" democratic circles, let's see how supportive they are. Reality is, the far left doesn't get cancelled as much because their popular ideas generally involve democratic control over the means of production and treating everyone like a human being, not revolution, while the far rights "popular" ideas are racism, sexism and the disenfranchisement of the "proles". One of these inherently requires authoritarianism, the other doesn't.
EamonnMR 6y ago
I would say that there is a wide gulf between wanting to make sure people have healthcare (Sanders's big position) and the violent revolution and subsequent authoritarianism that Communism tends to require.
- Consultant32452 6y ago
  I feel like all of this is avoiding the point. If there is such a place on the left that is "too far left" that you will be insta-canceled, what is it? Please provide an example of this happening to a public figure.
  - igorkraw 6y ago
    1. People tried to cancel Bernie Sanders, it just didn't work https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/01/15/bernie-sanderss-agenda-makes-him-definition-unelectable/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/01/15/bernie-sa... 2. Not a single person who openly advocates Stalinism or similar forceful collectivisation makes it onto the national stage. Meanwhile Richard Spencer was so "cancelled" that he continued to interviewed on national TV 3. In Germany and Europe, most communist parties are under observation by the constitutional secret service, despite being democratic parties 4. In the US, Colin Kapernick was cancelled by the NFL for kneeling to protest police brutality Leftist positions, as it turns out, are much less inherently tied to authoritarianism than Nazi ideology. Thus, you often see people advocating for democratic socialism on the national stage, but not for Stalinism and a violent revolution. The latter of which immediately gets them cancelled before they become much of a public figure
    - Consultant32452 6y ago
      1. Suggesting Bernie is "too far left" to get elected President is not canceling. Being forced to resign out of office in disgrace is a canceling. James Damore was a nobody with no power who was put under the national spotlight and canceled spectacularly. Rosanne Barr was canceled. 2. Richard Spencer has not been canceled because he went too far left. 3. So not a single person then. 4. Is Kapernick far left? I actually see people supporting leftist authoritarians openly pretty regularly. I already provided some pop culture examples elsewhere... AOC tweeted Marx's labor theory of value. Bernie openly supported the USSR (even honeymooned there), Cuba, Venezuela, and is an open socialist. I see people wearing Che Guevera shirts walking down the street.
JohnBooty 6y ago
It's simply not true that communists are canceled. The media regularly openly supports the CCP. The most popular politician in our country as of a couple years ago was open socialist Bernie Sanders Whoa, whoa, whoa. Communism != Socialism Each of these terms have been applied to a wide variety of beliefs and practices. Nobody owns these terms, but even Marx himself drew a sharp distinction between the two. "Communism" is a system in which the state owns everything and resources are, theoretically, fairly and equally distributed to the people. In practice, this has never worked out well, and very few folks view communism as a realistic solution today. "Socialism" refers to a much wider range of ideas. Broadly speaking, any redistribution of wealth is "socialism" and this would include collecting taxes and using them to build a public library, roads, or fund schooling for children. In practice, just about every nation on Earth is a blend of socialism and capitalism. In a truly free-market/capitalist society with zero traces of socialism, the government would provide almost literally nothing except for perhaps border defense. Canada and the UK are capitalist, but lean farther toward socialism (with their nationalized healthcare, etc) than the USA. When a modern American politician like Sanders or AOC advocates for "socialism", this is what they mean. Unlike communism, socialism works. It's just a question of how much of it you want. Even your most "socialist" politicians in the USA don't advocate the abolition of private property, and even the most libertarian politicians don't advocate the total dismantling of the federal government. It is also very important to understand that socialism is utterly compatible with democratic elections. Just as you could have a capitalist nation ruled by a dictator, you can have have a socialist nation with democratic elections. A nation's method of choosing leaders is almost entirely orthogonal to how it structures its economy.
- Consultant32452 6y ago
  The communist bit refers to the CCP, the Chinese Communist Party. Neither communists or socialists are canceled, there is no limit. People who go too far right are canceled.
  - JohnBooty 6y ago
    China's not remotely communist. It's socialist. CCP has "communist" in the name, but this is more of a historical artifact than anything. Rule of thumb with political parties and countries is that their actual names have little to do with reality -- witness all of the dictatorships that have had "Democratic" in their names over the years. Democratic Republic of the Congo springs to mind. And of course North Korea, officially the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (lol)

igorkraw 6y ago

There is a difference between communist and Stalinist/Leninist though. Calling yourself a nationalist Vs a Nazi seems to warrant that distinction in most countries

kofejnik 6y ago
> There is a difference between communist and Stalinist/Leninist though only to communists, maybe. From where I stand, Leninism/Stalinism/Trotskism/other -ism are all extreme totalitarian ideologies
- igorkraw 6y ago
  And would you accept the same grouping of capitalism, American libertarianism and fascism or would you prefer people actually pay attention to nuances?
  - kofejnik 6y ago
    since all real-world outcomes of communism have been consistently horrible, and since communists killed several of my ancestors - no, I am not going to look for nuances. If nazis should be punched, so should communists. Maybe if North Korea suddenly turns into actual paradise, I'll reconsider.
    - igorkraw 6y ago
      all real world outcomes of communism? Really? China being a dominant super power? I disagree with the regime, yeah, but that's a pretty black and white statement there. The left spectrum stretches as wide as the right-wing one, and communism has influenced all of them ideologically via socialism and social democracy or directly via unions. MLK was a socialist. So was Einstein. Would you stick to your statement?
      - kofejnik 6y ago
        Love your China example! Germany under Hitler also was a dominant superpower, if you forgot. So you just reinforced my point that communism is a totalitarian aggressive ideology, pretty similar to Nazism. So yeah, _all_ real world outcomes, definitely