9 ms·

>It still serves to support the point quite clearly that police are not to be feared as much as criminals, even if you're black. As you point out yourself, it

>It still serves to support the point quite clearly that police are not to be feared as much as criminals, even if you're black. As you point out yourself, it doesn't necessarily if you consider the average black person. The average black person is not a gang member, not a criminal and doesn't hang out with those groups. It may very well be that for such a person the police are a bigger risk than criminals. It's simply that the massively higher violence amongst criminals shifts the overall numbers.

eMSF 6y ago
Is the black person that gets into deadly altercations with the police an “average” black person? Of the two incidents that have caused much civil unrest lately (enough to be heard of on this side of the Atlantic) there's been one walking catalogue of locally available illicit substances (per the autopsy), and another one passed out drunk driver, with both of course resisting arrest after it is inevitable (with one of them also trying to use a police weapon in the process). Could those be just about anybody? “Average”, really?
- fzeroracer 6y ago
  You seem to be effectively saying that your average black person is a criminal because they see extrajudicial murder as being a bad thing, which is a remarkably racist thing to argue for. Not to mention your incredibly disingenuous takes on the situations that occurred and the reason why people are angry.
- marcinzm 6y ago
  I have a co-worker, middle class white collar living in a good neighborhood. Walking home with his kid from school. Stopped by police with hands on holsters and told to turn around slowly. Was afraid for his life. Talk to most any black person in the US and they have a similar story.
- shadowgovt 6y ago
  Societies aren't judged on how they treat their average members of society alone; also how they treat the outliers. The US treats its outliers poorly. We have the highest rate of incarceration and a disquieting likelihood of police interactions ending in violence against suspects relative to other countries.
- geekone 6y ago
  Are you implying Floyd was resisting while he was being suffocated for 10 minutes?
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > Are you implying Floyd was resisting while he was being suffocated for 10 minutes? Especially the 2 minutes after another officer checked for and could not find a pulse.
  - eMSF 6y ago
    No. Also, among other things you might in bad faith argue that I imply – but I do not – is that even if that was the case, killing him would've been OK. What I actually implied was that I hardly think these two are very good examples of “average” persons, or “average” black persons, which should be taken into consideration in parent's logic.
- pierrebai 6y ago
  Resisting arrest should not lead to death. There is no urgency to shoot someone who is drunk in the back as he is fleeing when you have his car in your possession. Polices are using unnecessarily lethal force indiscriminately for offenses and in situations that don't require in the least. They have been getting positive reinforcement by being not prosecuted and being protected by their force and the system in general.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > They have been getting positive reinforcement by being not prosecuted and being protected by their force and the system in general. Also, a number of cases have come out recently of police were disciplined, including dismissals, for reporting or intervening against excessive use of force by other cops, so there is negative reinforcement for good cops as well as positive reinforcement for the bad ones.
    - jacques_chester 6y ago
      A nitpick. "Positive" and "negative" in reinforcement don't mean "good, pleasant, desired" and "bad, unpleasant, not desired". They mean "something was added" and "something was taken away". Better names would be "additive" and "subtractive". The term for "good, pleasant, desired" is "reinforcement", for "bad, unpleasant, not desired" is punishment. So: Positive reinforcement --> Behaviour leads to addition of pleasurable stimulus. Eg. Press button, receive food. Negative reinforcement --> Behaviour leads to removal of unpleasant stimulus. Eg. Press button, persistent loud noise is muted. Positive punishment --> Behaviour leads to addition of unpleasant stimulus. Eg. Press button, loud noise begins. Negative punishment --> Behaviour leads to removal of pleasant stimulus. Eg. Press button, food is taken away.
  - marcinzm 6y ago
    We’ve also seen the last month that police will lie to cover their backsides. Resisting arrest without video evidence to prove it just means they needed a retroactive excuse.
  - eMSF 6y ago
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > Is the black person that gets into deadly altercations with the police an “average” black person? Sometimes, they are police themselves: https://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/27/nyregion/27shoot.html?auth=login-google https://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/27/nyregion/27shoot.html?aut...
- jakelazaroff 6y ago
  Not sure what "walking catalogue of locally available illicit substances" is a reference to, as that describes none of the recent police murders AFAIK. Also FYI, in the case of Rayshard Brooks (the victim who took the officer's Taser), the District Attorney said that the Taser "had already been fired twice and was thus empty and no longer a threat". https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-nw-atlanta-rayshard-brooks-charges-20200617-shscupaydngnhlnjf7cdi2jaza-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-nw-atlanta-ra...
  - treis 6y ago
    That's misleading to the point of lying. The "already" here means the split second between Brooks firing it at the officer and the officer shooting him.
    - jakelazaroff 6y ago
      Split second? The officer hadn't even drawn his gun when Brooks fired the Taser. He made the decision to draw his gun in the first place already knowing that the Taser Brooks held was depleted.
      - treis 6y ago
        It's on video and that's clearly not true: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnHecVdUysQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnHecVdUysQ The officer starts reaching for his gun between seconds 4 and 5, Brooks fires the tazer in second 5 and then is shot at the end of second 6.
        jakelazaroff 6y ago
        Are you serious? It's clearly true. The officer's gun remains in its holster until after Brooks fires the Taser — you can tell because his right arm is still vertical. The NYT has a good breakdown: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/14/us/videos-rayshard-brooks-shooting-atlanta-police.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/14/us/videos-rayshard-brooks... And regardless, let's not move the goalposts to consider only the time after Brooks fired the Taser. After all, it's not like that was the first opportunity the officer had to calculate how many shots it had left.

eMSF 6y ago

Is the black person that gets into deadly altercations with the police an “average” black person? Of the two incidents that have caused much civil unrest lately (enough to be heard of on this side of the Atlantic) there's been one walking catalogue of locally available illicit substances (per the autopsy), and another one passed out drunk driver, with both of course resisting arrest after it is inevitable (with one of them also trying to use a police weapon in the process). Could those be just about anybody? “Average”, really?

fzeroracer 6y ago
You seem to be effectively saying that your average black person is a criminal because they see extrajudicial murder as being a bad thing, which is a remarkably racist thing to argue for. Not to mention your incredibly disingenuous takes on the situations that occurred and the reason why people are angry.
marcinzm 6y ago
I have a co-worker, middle class white collar living in a good neighborhood. Walking home with his kid from school. Stopped by police with hands on holsters and told to turn around slowly. Was afraid for his life. Talk to most any black person in the US and they have a similar story.
shadowgovt 6y ago
Societies aren't judged on how they treat their average members of society alone; also how they treat the outliers. The US treats its outliers poorly. We have the highest rate of incarceration and a disquieting likelihood of police interactions ending in violence against suspects relative to other countries.
geekone 6y ago
Are you implying Floyd was resisting while he was being suffocated for 10 minutes?
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > Are you implying Floyd was resisting while he was being suffocated for 10 minutes? Especially the 2 minutes after another officer checked for and could not find a pulse.
- eMSF 6y ago
  No. Also, among other things you might in bad faith argue that I imply – but I do not – is that even if that was the case, killing him would've been OK. What I actually implied was that I hardly think these two are very good examples of “average” persons, or “average” black persons, which should be taken into consideration in parent's logic.
pierrebai 6y ago
Resisting arrest should not lead to death. There is no urgency to shoot someone who is drunk in the back as he is fleeing when you have his car in your possession. Polices are using unnecessarily lethal force indiscriminately for offenses and in situations that don't require in the least. They have been getting positive reinforcement by being not prosecuted and being protected by their force and the system in general.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > They have been getting positive reinforcement by being not prosecuted and being protected by their force and the system in general. Also, a number of cases have come out recently of police were disciplined, including dismissals, for reporting or intervening against excessive use of force by other cops, so there is negative reinforcement for good cops as well as positive reinforcement for the bad ones.
  - jacques_chester 6y ago
    A nitpick. "Positive" and "negative" in reinforcement don't mean "good, pleasant, desired" and "bad, unpleasant, not desired". They mean "something was added" and "something was taken away". Better names would be "additive" and "subtractive". The term for "good, pleasant, desired" is "reinforcement", for "bad, unpleasant, not desired" is punishment. So: Positive reinforcement --> Behaviour leads to addition of pleasurable stimulus. Eg. Press button, receive food. Negative reinforcement --> Behaviour leads to removal of unpleasant stimulus. Eg. Press button, persistent loud noise is muted. Positive punishment --> Behaviour leads to addition of unpleasant stimulus. Eg. Press button, loud noise begins. Negative punishment --> Behaviour leads to removal of pleasant stimulus. Eg. Press button, food is taken away.
- marcinzm 6y ago
  We’ve also seen the last month that police will lie to cover their backsides. Resisting arrest without video evidence to prove it just means they needed a retroactive excuse.
- eMSF 6y ago
dragonwriter 6y ago
> Is the black person that gets into deadly altercations with the police an “average” black person? Sometimes, they are police themselves: https://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/27/nyregion/27shoot.html?auth=login-google https://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/27/nyregion/27shoot.html?aut...
jakelazaroff 6y ago
Not sure what "walking catalogue of locally available illicit substances" is a reference to, as that describes none of the recent police murders AFAIK. Also FYI, in the case of Rayshard Brooks (the victim who took the officer's Taser), the District Attorney said that the Taser "had already been fired twice and was thus empty and no longer a threat". https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-nw-atlanta-rayshard-brooks-charges-20200617-shscupaydngnhlnjf7cdi2jaza-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-nw-atlanta-ra...
- treis 6y ago
  That's misleading to the point of lying. The "already" here means the split second between Brooks firing it at the officer and the officer shooting him.
  - jakelazaroff 6y ago
    Split second? The officer hadn't even drawn his gun when Brooks fired the Taser. He made the decision to draw his gun in the first place already knowing that the Taser Brooks held was depleted.
    - treis 6y ago
      It's on video and that's clearly not true: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnHecVdUysQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnHecVdUysQ The officer starts reaching for his gun between seconds 4 and 5, Brooks fires the tazer in second 5 and then is shot at the end of second 6.
      - jakelazaroff 6y ago
        Are you serious? It's clearly true. The officer's gun remains in its holster until after Brooks fires the Taser — you can tell because his right arm is still vertical. The NYT has a good breakdown: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/14/us/videos-rayshard-brooks-shooting-atlanta-police.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/14/us/videos-rayshard-brooks... And regardless, let's not move the goalposts to consider only the time after Brooks fired the Taser. After all, it's not like that was the first opportunity the officer had to calculate how many shots it had left.