5 ms·

>Bringing up "black-on-black crime" is a common disingenuous tactic to distract from conversations about police brutality. It's part of the story, though. The

by treis 6y ago

>Bringing up "black-on-black crime" is a common disingenuous tactic to distract from conversations about police brutality. It's part of the story, though. The incident in the linked article started because a group of teens jumped another and stole his phone. If that's happening 10x as often then innocent kids in that neighborhood are going to be 10x as likely to be swept up in police action.

dhosek 6y ago
[edited to add context] a comprehensive reply to the "what about black on black crime" comment from journalist Michael Harriot. https://twitter.com/michaelharriot/status/1268463768285188096?fbclid=IwAR14-WIG8jldNTy03xiUgzAKLkN421_Nwbs57myCLlY-XAmeokJjYuVIRh8 https://twitter.com/michaelharriot/status/126846376828518809...
- dvtrn 6y ago
  When people ask "why isn't anyone talking about black on black crime?" or why aren't "we" in the black community talking about it, my response is usually to start by asking "Who is 'we'"?[0] and then to retort that "'We' are, 'we' have been" and several black authors have written and are writing about it. - "Locking Up Our Own", James Foreman, an analysis by a black attorney discussing black crime, black recidivism and black involvement as attorneys and judges in the criminal justice system - "In Contempt", Christopher Darden, an autobiography written by one of the attorneys in the OJ Simpson trial where swaths of the book are dedicated to Darner's views and interactions with other attorneys who tackled "black on black crime" in LA during the 90's prior to his time as a District Attorney - "The Man Not" (the most recent publication in this non-exhaustive list), Tommy Curry, explorations on the victimization of black men by their black guardians, with some focus on sexual abuse and exploitation of their bodies as the lens through which Curry focuses a larger critique - "Negroland", Margo Jefferson, a memoir of the black elite class of Chicago and ramifications of black success experienced sometimes at the expense of lower-class black Americans, perpetuated sometimes by upper-class black Americans I'm a bit fatigued by the insinuation that black America is shirking a responsibility to tackle these in-group issues, because it's not as if there's a lack of poignant critical theory emerging from our group on the topic. It's all there and readily available, and the names and reference content I provided here isn't an exhaustive list either. --- [0] https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/who-is-we-1833100853 https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/who-is-we-1833100853
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- treis 6y ago
  I don't see anything in there to refute what I said. In fact, he seems to agree with my numbers at least. He admits that Blacks are roughly 10x as likely to commit murder. If we agree with that and agree that is some rough proxy for criminality why wouldn't we expect about 10 times as much police violence against Black people?
  - dvtrn 6y ago
    If we agree with that and agree that is some rough proxy for criminality why wouldn't we expect about 10 times as much police violence against Black people? Caveat lector: If we agree. I don't agree with this idea that the statistics of criminality in the black community is a proxy for anything, and more that it is a result of multiple compounding issues that snowballed throughout generations of peoples bringing us to where we are today. In your mind what is this a proxy for? I'd like to hear this notion unpacked. Those questions are varied and nuanced and their answers are equally varied and nuanced, and against the backdrop of exactly how certain members of the constabulary execute (pun most certainly and deliberately intended) violence in response to violence are people like me trying to desperately point at as this the topic we want to discuss when we say "Black Lives Matter", yet time and time again we have to stop and have the "black people commit more crimes" discussion with people who are focused on the math of crimes committed while black at the expense of just about any other valid variable in the equation. So if we take the "black people commit more crimes" framework on its face, does that mean they deserve to die for all of them? Did Sandra Bland really need to be shot because she didn't want to put out a cigarette at a traffic stop or could the officer have written her the moving citation she probably actually deserved, and gone about his policing elsewhere?[0] Did Eric Garner need asphyxiation for a civil citation when he was stopped for selling illegal cigarettes? Did George Floyd need to have a knee on his neck for nearly 10 minutes for a counterfeit $20? I challenge us all to think beyond just "well they committed a crime" and start asking some hard goddamn questions about what we're saying if that's going to be the response to critical theories of criminal justice-because many (not all) of the names commonly shouted out in discussion about police brutality committed petty offenses that should have received citations but instead received death sentences; highlighting a severely disproportionate view of policing scofflaws that breaks "well they broke the law" down into "contempt of cop"[1]. --- [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/07/22/a-trooper-arrested-sandra-bland-after-she-refused-to-put-out-a-cigarette-was-it-legal/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/07/2... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contempt_of_cop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contempt_of_cop
jf22 6y ago
The problem is people don't deny black-on-black crime is a problem. Society is in agreement that we don't want that. Bring up racism and police brutality though and people strongly deny it's a problem.
- vangelis 6y ago
  Weirdly, it only seems to come up when you mention police brutality!
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    That's because no one outside of the Black community listens to Black voices about Black social issues unless (1) it's positive attention to a rich Black person blaming the the moral failings of Blacks for the problems of Black communities and absolving White and wealthy society, or (2) it's attention (usually, historically, negative, but there are moments when that flips on one issue or another) to Black people questioning a trusted (by Whites) social institution and it's contribution to Black social problems. Everything else is beneath notice of the wider society. It's talked about, but no one outside of the community is listening. Which is fine, except when they base their response to the issues on which they do pay a little attention to assumption that what they aren't hearing on other issues is because it's not being talked about.
  - treis 6y ago
    That's disingenuous. Police brutality almost always comes up in the context of BLM and in this specific case the article made it a racial issue. You can't do that and then say "why are we talking about race" when (the general) you started the conversation talking about race.
    - vertex-four 6y ago
      Talking about specific issues which relate to race does not mean all issues which relate to race have to be brought up.
- genoapol 6y ago
marcinzm 6y ago
>If that's happening 10x as often then innocent kids in that neighborhood are going to be 10x as likely to be swept up in police action. Why do you consider it okay for police to stop and harass innocent people with no evidence simply because they live in a certain neighborhood?
- treis 6y ago
  Where did I say that it was okay for police to stop and harass innocent people?
  - seamyb88 6y ago
    Your logic implies it. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_conditional https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_conditional

by treis 6y ago

dhosek 6y ago

[edited to add context] a comprehensive reply to the "what about black on black crime" comment from journalist Michael Harriot. https://twitter.com/michaelharriot/status/1268463768285188096?fbclid=IwAR14-WIG8jldNTy03xiUgzAKLkN421_Nwbs57myCLlY-XAmeokJjYuVIRh8 https://twitter.com/michaelharriot/status/126846376828518809...

dvtrn 6y ago
When people ask "why isn't anyone talking about black on black crime?" or why aren't "we" in the black community talking about it, my response is usually to start by asking "Who is 'we'"?[0] and then to retort that "'We' are, 'we' have been" and several black authors have written and are writing about it. - "Locking Up Our Own", James Foreman, an analysis by a black attorney discussing black crime, black recidivism and black involvement as attorneys and judges in the criminal justice system - "In Contempt", Christopher Darden, an autobiography written by one of the attorneys in the OJ Simpson trial where swaths of the book are dedicated to Darner's views and interactions with other attorneys who tackled "black on black crime" in LA during the 90's prior to his time as a District Attorney - "The Man Not" (the most recent publication in this non-exhaustive list), Tommy Curry, explorations on the victimization of black men by their black guardians, with some focus on sexual abuse and exploitation of their bodies as the lens through which Curry focuses a larger critique - "Negroland", Margo Jefferson, a memoir of the black elite class of Chicago and ramifications of black success experienced sometimes at the expense of lower-class black Americans, perpetuated sometimes by upper-class black Americans I'm a bit fatigued by the insinuation that black America is shirking a responsibility to tackle these in-group issues, because it's not as if there's a lack of poignant critical theory emerging from our group on the topic. It's all there and readily available, and the names and reference content I provided here isn't an exhaustive list either. --- [0] https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/who-is-we-1833100853 https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/who-is-we-1833100853
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
treis 6y ago
I don't see anything in there to refute what I said. In fact, he seems to agree with my numbers at least. He admits that Blacks are roughly 10x as likely to commit murder. If we agree with that and agree that is some rough proxy for criminality why wouldn't we expect about 10 times as much police violence against Black people?
- dvtrn 6y ago
  If we agree with that and agree that is some rough proxy for criminality why wouldn't we expect about 10 times as much police violence against Black people? Caveat lector: If we agree. I don't agree with this idea that the statistics of criminality in the black community is a proxy for anything, and more that it is a result of multiple compounding issues that snowballed throughout generations of peoples bringing us to where we are today. In your mind what is this a proxy for? I'd like to hear this notion unpacked. Those questions are varied and nuanced and their answers are equally varied and nuanced, and against the backdrop of exactly how certain members of the constabulary execute (pun most certainly and deliberately intended) violence in response to violence are people like me trying to desperately point at as this the topic we want to discuss when we say "Black Lives Matter", yet time and time again we have to stop and have the "black people commit more crimes" discussion with people who are focused on the math of crimes committed while black at the expense of just about any other valid variable in the equation. So if we take the "black people commit more crimes" framework on its face, does that mean they deserve to die for all of them? Did Sandra Bland really need to be shot because she didn't want to put out a cigarette at a traffic stop or could the officer have written her the moving citation she probably actually deserved, and gone about his policing elsewhere?[0] Did Eric Garner need asphyxiation for a civil citation when he was stopped for selling illegal cigarettes? Did George Floyd need to have a knee on his neck for nearly 10 minutes for a counterfeit $20? I challenge us all to think beyond just "well they committed a crime" and start asking some hard goddamn questions about what we're saying if that's going to be the response to critical theories of criminal justice-because many (not all) of the names commonly shouted out in discussion about police brutality committed petty offenses that should have received citations but instead received death sentences; highlighting a severely disproportionate view of policing scofflaws that breaks "well they broke the law" down into "contempt of cop"[1]. --- [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/07/22/a-trooper-arrested-sandra-bland-after-she-refused-to-put-out-a-cigarette-was-it-legal/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/07/2... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contempt_of_cop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contempt_of_cop

jf22 6y ago

The problem is people don't deny black-on-black crime is a problem. Society is in agreement that we don't want that. Bring up racism and police brutality though and people strongly deny it's a problem.

vangelis 6y ago
Weirdly, it only seems to come up when you mention police brutality!
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  That's because no one outside of the Black community listens to Black voices about Black social issues unless (1) it's positive attention to a rich Black person blaming the the moral failings of Blacks for the problems of Black communities and absolving White and wealthy society, or (2) it's attention (usually, historically, negative, but there are moments when that flips on one issue or another) to Black people questioning a trusted (by Whites) social institution and it's contribution to Black social problems. Everything else is beneath notice of the wider society. It's talked about, but no one outside of the community is listening. Which is fine, except when they base their response to the issues on which they do pay a little attention to assumption that what they aren't hearing on other issues is because it's not being talked about.
- treis 6y ago
  That's disingenuous. Police brutality almost always comes up in the context of BLM and in this specific case the article made it a racial issue. You can't do that and then say "why are we talking about race" when (the general) you started the conversation talking about race.
  - vertex-four 6y ago
    Talking about specific issues which relate to race does not mean all issues which relate to race have to be brought up.
genoapol 6y ago

marcinzm 6y ago

>If that's happening 10x as often then innocent kids in that neighborhood are going to be 10x as likely to be swept up in police action. Why do you consider it okay for police to stop and harass innocent people with no evidence simply because they live in a certain neighborhood?

treis 6y ago
Where did I say that it was okay for police to stop and harass innocent people?
- seamyb88 6y ago
  Your logic implies it. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_conditional https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_conditional