5 ms·

Why is "Black" capitalized, but "white" is not?

jfengel 6y ago
I don't know what style guide ProPublica uses, but very recently AP decided to capitalize Black when used as a cultural term when it conveys "essential and shared sense of history, identity and community among people who identify as Black". They go on to say that they expect to make a decision soon about whether to do that with "white" as well. https://blog.ap.org/announcements/the-decision-to-capitalize-black https://blog.ap.org/announcements/the-decision-to-capitalize... https://apnews.com/71386b46dbff8190e71493a763e8f45a https://apnews.com/71386b46dbff8190e71493a763e8f45a
- jfengel 6y ago
  And boy, those must be some fraught discussions. I think of myself as white but not White, because the notion White Culture connotes white supremacy. Black people outside of Africa share a common element of diaspora, at the very least defined in terms of their shared difficulties, while I as a white person in the west define myself more closely with smaller ethnic and national groups than with whiteness as a whole. Still... the terminology of race is never going to be precise, and to the degree it exists at all, I'm going to be seen as white rather than another thing. So we might as well be parallel, and use White along with Black and Indigenous and other tendentious but sometimes useful categories. So if I had to bet, that's where I suspect AP will land. But I don't envy them the process of coming to that conclusion, or the backlash they're going to get either way.
  - hanselot 6y ago
    Have you ever found you had little care left for labels when you realise everyone's neural net is already putting labels on you anyways?
  - nailer 6y ago
    > while I as a white person in the west define myself more closely with smaller ethnic and national groups than with whiteness as a whole. Sure, but how do others define you? Consider that tech companies and activists are trying to redefine the meaning of racism to allow others to discriminate against you based on the color of your skin.
    - jfengel 6y ago
      Exactly right, and in fact I am often excluded from whiteness on account of being Jewish. The most explicit white supremacists construct Whiteness very narrowly. And it's in opposition to white supremacy that a notion of Blackness is more important: not how they see themselves, but how they are treated, and how that treatment affects their lives. I would be considered white in most circumstances so I get a pass from a lot of discrimination that affects others. And that's why I consider it important to take a stand against that discrimination -- though unfortunately, the people propagating the worst of that discrimination see me as a traitor.
- yarrel 6y ago
  Capitalizing "Black" is in response to people who identify as Black doing so, I believe. Doing so for people who identify as capital-W "White" would be very different and hand them a victory that will badly distort public debate. It's amazing how powerful just applying capitalize() to a string can be.
jibcage 6y ago
“For many people, Black reflects a shared sense of identity and community. White carries a different set of meanings; capitalizing the word in this context risks following the lead of white supremacists.” https://www.cjr.org/analysis/capital-b-black-styleguide.php https://www.cjr.org/analysis/capital-b-black-styleguide.php
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- antishatter 6y ago
  Kafkaesque
  - aspaceman 6y ago
    Not really. You wouldn’t be criticized if you got it wrong, but it’s the kinda thing that would make an English style guide. You do it the other way and watch absolutely no one care.
    - nailer 6y ago
      > You do it the other way and watch absolutely no one care. I have never seen a style guide make a distinction between skin colors, and I disagree that nobody would care if they capitalised 'white' but not 'black'.
      - aspaceman 6y ago
        You’re quoting to a reply that replies to a link with a style guide that does exactly that. Open it and your whole world will change apparently. Reading comprehension must be so hard.
        nailer 6y ago
        My comment: "I disagree that nobody would care if they capitalised 'white' but not 'black'." The style guide in question: "why we capitalize ‘Black’ (and not ‘white’)" Your comment: "You’re quoting to a reply that replies to a link with a style guide that does exactly that. Reading comprehension must be so hard." Yes, it must.
alistairSH 6y ago
It already is... Irish-American, Polish-American, Jewish, etc. "Black" isn't just about skin tone, it's about the shared cultural experience.
- nailer 6y ago
  But that's not correct - while both would generally be considered 'black', sub Saharan Africans share very little cultural experience with African Americans.
  - alistairSH 6y ago
    Fair enough. But, as soon as the sub-Saharan African moves to the US, I suspect his experiences from that point forward will rapidly start to match those of Black Americans, particularly WRT to police use of force.
    - nailer 6y ago
      African immigrants generally strive, similar to Asian immigrants. The Nigerian stereotype is being a doctor. Issues like fatherless children, teenage pregnancy, juvenile delinquency and gang culture will likely be less prevalent, and the Africans will likely be less involved with the police.
ThinkingGuy 6y ago
"black" = race "Black" = ethnicity See also: "deaf" = the physical condition of being unable to hear "Deaf" = being part of the Deaf culture (sign language user, shared experiences unique to growing up deaf, etc.)

I don't know what style guide ProPublica uses, but very recently AP decided to capitalize Black when used as a cultural term when it conveys "essential and shared sense of history, identity and community among people who identify as Black". They go on to say that they expect to make a decision soon about whether to do that with "white" as well. https://blog.ap.org/announcements/the-decision-to-capitalize-black https://blog.ap.org/announcements/the-decision-to-capitalize... https://apnews.com/71386b46dbff8190e71493a763e8f45a https://apnews.com/71386b46dbff8190e71493a763e8f45a

jfengel 6y ago
And boy, those must be some fraught discussions. I think of myself as white but not White, because the notion White Culture connotes white supremacy. Black people outside of Africa share a common element of diaspora, at the very least defined in terms of their shared difficulties, while I as a white person in the west define myself more closely with smaller ethnic and national groups than with whiteness as a whole. Still... the terminology of race is never going to be precise, and to the degree it exists at all, I'm going to be seen as white rather than another thing. So we might as well be parallel, and use White along with Black and Indigenous and other tendentious but sometimes useful categories. So if I had to bet, that's where I suspect AP will land. But I don't envy them the process of coming to that conclusion, or the backlash they're going to get either way.
- hanselot 6y ago
  Have you ever found you had little care left for labels when you realise everyone's neural net is already putting labels on you anyways?
- nailer 6y ago
  > while I as a white person in the west define myself more closely with smaller ethnic and national groups than with whiteness as a whole. Sure, but how do others define you? Consider that tech companies and activists are trying to redefine the meaning of racism to allow others to discriminate against you based on the color of your skin.
  - jfengel 6y ago
    Exactly right, and in fact I am often excluded from whiteness on account of being Jewish. The most explicit white supremacists construct Whiteness very narrowly. And it's in opposition to white supremacy that a notion of Blackness is more important: not how they see themselves, but how they are treated, and how that treatment affects their lives. I would be considered white in most circumstances so I get a pass from a lot of discrimination that affects others. And that's why I consider it important to take a stand against that discrimination -- though unfortunately, the people propagating the worst of that discrimination see me as a traitor.
yarrel 6y ago
Capitalizing "Black" is in response to people who identify as Black doing so, I believe. Doing so for people who identify as capital-W "White" would be very different and hand them a victory that will badly distort public debate. It's amazing how powerful just applying capitalize() to a string can be.

jibcage 6y ago

“For many people, Black reflects a shared sense of identity and community. White carries a different set of meanings; capitalizing the word in this context risks following the lead of white supremacists.” https://www.cjr.org/analysis/capital-b-black-styleguide.php https://www.cjr.org/analysis/capital-b-black-styleguide.php

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
antishatter 6y ago
Kafkaesque
- aspaceman 6y ago
  Not really. You wouldn’t be criticized if you got it wrong, but it’s the kinda thing that would make an English style guide. You do it the other way and watch absolutely no one care.
  - nailer 6y ago
    > You do it the other way and watch absolutely no one care. I have never seen a style guide make a distinction between skin colors, and I disagree that nobody would care if they capitalised 'white' but not 'black'.
    - aspaceman 6y ago
      You’re quoting to a reply that replies to a link with a style guide that does exactly that. Open it and your whole world will change apparently. Reading comprehension must be so hard.
      - nailer 6y ago
        My comment: "I disagree that nobody would care if they capitalised 'white' but not 'black'." The style guide in question: "why we capitalize ‘Black’ (and not ‘white’)" Your comment: "You’re quoting to a reply that replies to a link with a style guide that does exactly that. Reading comprehension must be so hard." Yes, it must.

alistairSH 6y ago

It already is... Irish-American, Polish-American, Jewish, etc. "Black" isn't just about skin tone, it's about the shared cultural experience.

nailer 6y ago
But that's not correct - while both would generally be considered 'black', sub Saharan Africans share very little cultural experience with African Americans.
- alistairSH 6y ago
  Fair enough. But, as soon as the sub-Saharan African moves to the US, I suspect his experiences from that point forward will rapidly start to match those of Black Americans, particularly WRT to police use of force.
  - nailer 6y ago
    African immigrants generally strive, similar to Asian immigrants. The Nigerian stereotype is being a doctor. Issues like fatherless children, teenage pregnancy, juvenile delinquency and gang culture will likely be less prevalent, and the Africans will likely be less involved with the police.

ThinkingGuy 6y ago

"black" = race "Black" = ethnicity See also: "deaf" = the physical condition of being unable to hear "Deaf" = being part of the Deaf culture (sign language user, shared experiences unique to growing up deaf, etc.)