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I think I'm missing something. How is ARM closing things up? Does Apple have a bunch of processor extensions that make it incompatible with other ARM processors

by Bigpet 6y ago

I think I'm missing something. How is ARM closing things up? Does Apple have a bunch of processor extensions that make it incompatible with other ARM processors? Or do you think they'll take the chance to kill boot-camp or something?

monocasa 6y ago
They'll almost certainly only allow their signed kernels to run. And that's in addition to not documenting any of the peripherals.
- larkost 6y ago
  Apple already has a program for select third party companies to get their own signing keys for kernel extensions. They have been tightening that circle over the last few years as they provide more and more generic interfaces so that companies can replace KEXTs with user space code. From what they said in the State of the Union keynote they want to get that down to nothing, but realize they can't do that yet. No details were provided, but there might be more in the KEXT sessions if you are interested.
proninyaroslav 6y ago
I think Apple has more maneuvers on ARM, since in general the PC architecture is open for modifications, unlike ARM. They will do it the same way as with iOS devices - a closed bootloader and hardware protection.
qubex 6y ago
The “ARM world” is almost inconceivably varied by x86 standards. There’s not even an agreed-upon boot procedure (the Raspberrry Pi’s CPU famously gets booted by the GPU). Efforts to standardise this in the server space are only just getting off the ground with the Arm Server Base Boot Requirements version 1.2 being ratified last year. I doubt you’ll find Apple subscribing to anything that they won’t develop in-house. This is, after all, the company that developed the Lightening connector and sticks on its iPhones to it despite the whole industry shifting to USB-C. Basically the OS situation on Macs post-ARM is probably going to look like the Linux situation on iDevices currently: occasionally somebody manages to text-mode-boot an iPhone 7 into a profoundly unstable hacked-up kernel and there is much merriment and rejoicing, but really... macs are going to become rather exotic (on the inside). Have you ever wondered about your iPad’s boot sequence? Because you’ve never had to think about it. Notice how you can’t install versions of i(Pad)OS that are no longer signed? You think Apple will allow booting unsigned images? And all the Secure Enclave infrastructure they’ve built up? Nah.
- viro 6y ago
  in all fairness the Lightening connector has been around a lot longer than usb-c
  - larkost 6y ago
    Beyond that, you have to acknowledge that Apple contributed heavily to USB-C. They are invested, but had to weigh the plusses and minuses of transitioning the iPhone. My guess is that it was something like this: Plusses: - everyone shares the same connectors Minuses: - all the old peripherals out there now don't work on the new phones - there are lots of debug systems for phones built into the Lightning ports that Apple uses internally, those are all gone - there are lots of junk chargers out there, and no real inspection scheme for USB-C, whereas Apple runs an inspection scheme already for Lighting Since there is a large enough market for Apple products, Apple is not worried about the small bonus of everyone sharing the same connectors. Given that it seem pretty obvious that until there is something to push them off Lightening (e.g. power requirements, speed of connection, etc...), they will stay there.
- morpheuskafka 6y ago
  The CPU booted by GPU is actually very similar to the way that the T2 boots the Intel CPU in existing Macs, providing signature assurance on the microcode, ME firmware, and boot image before the CPU even loads.
- Dunedan 6y ago
  > This is, after all, the company that developed the Lightening connector and sticks on its iPhones to it despite the whole industry shifting to USB-C. There is a rumor that Apple developed USB-C and donated it to the USB-IF [1]. Apple was also one of the first users of USB-C when they introduced the 12" MacBook in 2015. Since then they've continuously grown their adoption of USB-C, first in the MacBook Pro in 2016, then in the iMac and iMac Pro in 2017, the iPad Pro, MacBook Air and Mac Mini in 2018 and most recently in the Mac Pro in 2019. In fact nowadays the only Apple devices still not featuring USB-C are the iPhone and the (non-Pro) iPads. There are probably good reasons why Apple hasn't replaced Lightning with USB-C for the iPhone and iPad yet. If they replace Lightning with USB-C now, the whole 3rd-party accessory ecosystem has to adapt to that. While that's probably fine, if the rumors are true that Apple plans to remove all physical ports from iPhones [2] next year, that would result in USB-C equipped iPhones/iPads only being sold for 2-3 years, before there is another interface again. So Apples thinking is probably that it's more customer friendly to stick to Lightning until they replace it with a wireless solution and I'd agree with such an assessment. [1]: https://www.macrumors.com/2015/03/13/apple-invents-usb-c/ https://www.macrumors.com/2015/03/13/apple-invents-usb-c/ [2]: https://www.macrumors.com/2019/12/05/kuo-iphone-without-lightning-connector-2021/ https://www.macrumors.com/2019/12/05/kuo-iphone-without-ligh...
ezconnect 6y ago
Everything will now be digitally signed, look at the iphone jailbreak scene on how hard is it to customize your own hardware to run the software you want.

by Bigpet 6y ago

monocasa 6y ago

They'll almost certainly only allow their signed kernels to run. And that's in addition to not documenting any of the peripherals.

larkost 6y ago
Apple already has a program for select third party companies to get their own signing keys for kernel extensions. They have been tightening that circle over the last few years as they provide more and more generic interfaces so that companies can replace KEXTs with user space code. From what they said in the State of the Union keynote they want to get that down to nothing, but realize they can't do that yet. No details were provided, but there might be more in the KEXT sessions if you are interested.

proninyaroslav 6y ago

I think Apple has more maneuvers on ARM, since in general the PC architecture is open for modifications, unlike ARM. They will do it the same way as with iOS devices - a closed bootloader and hardware protection.

qubex 6y ago

The “ARM world” is almost inconceivably varied by x86 standards. There’s not even an agreed-upon boot procedure (the Raspberrry Pi’s CPU famously gets booted by the GPU). Efforts to standardise this in the server space are only just getting off the ground with the Arm Server Base Boot Requirements version 1.2 being ratified last year. I doubt you’ll find Apple subscribing to anything that they won’t develop in-house. This is, after all, the company that developed the Lightening connector and sticks on its iPhones to it despite the whole industry shifting to USB-C. Basically the OS situation on Macs post-ARM is probably going to look like the Linux situation on iDevices currently: occasionally somebody manages to text-mode-boot an iPhone 7 into a profoundly unstable hacked-up kernel and there is much merriment and rejoicing, but really... macs are going to become rather exotic (on the inside). Have you ever wondered about your iPad’s boot sequence? Because you’ve never had to think about it. Notice how you can’t install versions of i(Pad)OS that are no longer signed? You think Apple will allow booting unsigned images? And all the Secure Enclave infrastructure they’ve built up? Nah.

viro 6y ago
in all fairness the Lightening connector has been around a lot longer than usb-c
- larkost 6y ago
  Beyond that, you have to acknowledge that Apple contributed heavily to USB-C. They are invested, but had to weigh the plusses and minuses of transitioning the iPhone. My guess is that it was something like this: Plusses: - everyone shares the same connectors Minuses: - all the old peripherals out there now don't work on the new phones - there are lots of debug systems for phones built into the Lightning ports that Apple uses internally, those are all gone - there are lots of junk chargers out there, and no real inspection scheme for USB-C, whereas Apple runs an inspection scheme already for Lighting Since there is a large enough market for Apple products, Apple is not worried about the small bonus of everyone sharing the same connectors. Given that it seem pretty obvious that until there is something to push them off Lightening (e.g. power requirements, speed of connection, etc...), they will stay there.
morpheuskafka 6y ago
The CPU booted by GPU is actually very similar to the way that the T2 boots the Intel CPU in existing Macs, providing signature assurance on the microcode, ME firmware, and boot image before the CPU even loads.
Dunedan 6y ago
> This is, after all, the company that developed the Lightening connector and sticks on its iPhones to it despite the whole industry shifting to USB-C. There is a rumor that Apple developed USB-C and donated it to the USB-IF [1]. Apple was also one of the first users of USB-C when they introduced the 12" MacBook in 2015. Since then they've continuously grown their adoption of USB-C, first in the MacBook Pro in 2016, then in the iMac and iMac Pro in 2017, the iPad Pro, MacBook Air and Mac Mini in 2018 and most recently in the Mac Pro in 2019. In fact nowadays the only Apple devices still not featuring USB-C are the iPhone and the (non-Pro) iPads. There are probably good reasons why Apple hasn't replaced Lightning with USB-C for the iPhone and iPad yet. If they replace Lightning with USB-C now, the whole 3rd-party accessory ecosystem has to adapt to that. While that's probably fine, if the rumors are true that Apple plans to remove all physical ports from iPhones [2] next year, that would result in USB-C equipped iPhones/iPads only being sold for 2-3 years, before there is another interface again. So Apples thinking is probably that it's more customer friendly to stick to Lightning until they replace it with a wireless solution and I'd agree with such an assessment. [1]: https://www.macrumors.com/2015/03/13/apple-invents-usb-c/ https://www.macrumors.com/2015/03/13/apple-invents-usb-c/ [2]: https://www.macrumors.com/2019/12/05/kuo-iphone-without-lightning-connector-2021/ https://www.macrumors.com/2019/12/05/kuo-iphone-without-ligh...

ezconnect 6y ago

Everything will now be digitally signed, look at the iphone jailbreak scene on how hard is it to customize your own hardware to run the software you want.