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I was following the time honored HN tradition of posting one line about the article and then taking up a tangent. That might be a practice to do away with. Bu

I was following the time honored HN tradition of posting one line about the article and then taking up a tangent. That might be a practice to do away with. But to be literal, I asked because I wanted to talk about it and not just read about. However that may have been a mistake on my part; this article, found through my search engine, was pretty good: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/aug/08/why-are-there-so-few-women-in-tech-the-truth-behind-the-google-memo https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/aug/08/why-are... Points raised in the article: 1. Inherent differences between genders, if they exist, are tiny, and vary considerably from region to region 2. Starting in the 80s computers were marketed towards males 3. Computers were often in the male sibling's bedroom and not their own, according to interviews with some female CMU students in the 90s 4. Self-bias "For instance, girls tend to score worse on a test if they are told their maths skills are being assessed than when they are told they are taking part in a study investigating how people solve problems." 5. Hostile work environments: articles about why women should not be in the workplace, sexual harassment and illegal discrimination 6. May not be a worse gender gap than other industries such as finance or media 7. Cultural: women can (physically) start a family by having children; men cannot; there is an cost to staying in a work environment with regard to starting a family, and there is a "risk-taking" in the tech industry (to be honest, I've always found it very a secure line of work, but that is what the article says) 8. Tech may be well placed to bring more females into the workplace 9. Startups where someone is encouraged to spend a lot of time at the workplace are not doable for primary caregivers (which is often mothers) 10. Algorithmic biases being implicitly developed by a mostly male workforce (e.g. voice recognition trained and tested solely by men) Final line from the article, and why I posted my root post to begin with: “Computing is too important to be left to men.” So there is a whole host of reasons.

scott_s 6y ago
> I was following the time honored HN tradition of posting one line about the article and then taking up a tangent. Please don't.
- nchelluri 6y ago
  You're right; it's bad practice. Sometimes I just want to talk tech and it's easier for me to talk about a tangent that I undersand than to stay on-topic when I don't have any knowledge, but that's a bad habit when it comes to a post on someone's article. I'll eliminate this behavior.
  - cutemonster 6y ago
    I think such related discussions can be interesting There's nothing in the guidelines against bringing up related topics -- instead it's just the gp's personal opinion https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
galoisgirl 6y ago
> I was following the time honored HN tradition of posting one line about the article and then taking up a tangent. I don't have too much of a problem with that, it's asking a question you should research first. It's not that I don't want to talk about it either, I just don't want to explain the basics every time. I'm also not an expert on the issue, many people have much more to say on the matter. If I could add something to what you've pointed out, I'd divide the reasons into two categories: 1. Why women don't go into IT 2. Why women leave - and boy do they: "Women are more than twice as likely to quit the tech industry as men (41% vs 17%)" per https://medium.com/tech-diversity-files/the-real-reason-women-quit-tech-and-how-to-address-it-6dfb606929fd https://medium.com/tech-diversity-files/the-real-reason-wome... The second one worries me a lot more. We are talking about women who chose IT, who are trained, who made it. We are talking about a market where jobs and opportunities abound, where you can work from home, move anywhere you want. And yet so many women find this industry unbearable. From personal experience, I can't contribute much to point 2, as the temptation of leaving is foreign to me, nor do I know women who left. Maybe it's a cultural thing - I live in Europe and while brogrammers exist here, I have no problem finding good and respectful teams. I have worked for startups without staying late and yet got promoted to team leader. I have encountered sexism, but I also have been treated better because of my gender. I have struggled with getting into IT, and my biggest obstacle was my lack of self-confidence. This is by no means reserved to girls, but we do hear the "girls suck at math", we see boys dominating math contests or math-oriented high schools, and it leaves a mark. Here's another good article: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-science-success/201101/the-trouble-bright-girls https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-science-success/... The takeaway is that since girls are praised for results and boys for effort, "bright girls believe that their abilities are innate and unchangeable, while bright boys believe that they can develop ability through effort and practice", a vicious circle. Still personal, but not limited to me: neurodiversity. Girls are far more often undiagnozed for ADHD and autism. We cause less trouble, we get less understanding for not behaving accordingly to society's norms. Life without diagnosis was one without help and resources to deal with my symptoms. Instead, I was told my problems were my character flaws, which left little of my self-esteem. When you don't believe you can do it, you don't try yet another solution, you don't search yet another query, but you buy into the narratives mentioned above: your gender leaves you at a disadvantage and always will, you got As because you were gifted but this is how far your talents go, clearly, you're not made for this.

scott_s 6y ago

> I was following the time honored HN tradition of posting one line about the article and then taking up a tangent. Please don't.

nchelluri 6y ago
You're right; it's bad practice. Sometimes I just want to talk tech and it's easier for me to talk about a tangent that I undersand than to stay on-topic when I don't have any knowledge, but that's a bad habit when it comes to a post on someone's article. I'll eliminate this behavior.
- cutemonster 6y ago
  I think such related discussions can be interesting There's nothing in the guidelines against bringing up related topics -- instead it's just the gp's personal opinion https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

galoisgirl 6y ago

> I was following the time honored HN tradition of posting one line about the article and then taking up a tangent. I don't have too much of a problem with that, it's asking a question you should research first. It's not that I don't want to talk about it either, I just don't want to explain the basics every time. I'm also not an expert on the issue, many people have much more to say on the matter. If I could add something to what you've pointed out, I'd divide the reasons into two categories: 1. Why women don't go into IT 2. Why women leave - and boy do they: "Women are more than twice as likely to quit the tech industry as men (41% vs 17%)" per https://medium.com/tech-diversity-files/the-real-reason-women-quit-tech-and-how-to-address-it-6dfb606929fd https://medium.com/tech-diversity-files/the-real-reason-wome... The second one worries me a lot more. We are talking about women who chose IT, who are trained, who made it. We are talking about a market where jobs and opportunities abound, where you can work from home, move anywhere you want. And yet so many women find this industry unbearable. From personal experience, I can't contribute much to point 2, as the temptation of leaving is foreign to me, nor do I know women who left. Maybe it's a cultural thing - I live in Europe and while brogrammers exist here, I have no problem finding good and respectful teams. I have worked for startups without staying late and yet got promoted to team leader. I have encountered sexism, but I also have been treated better because of my gender. I have struggled with getting into IT, and my biggest obstacle was my lack of self-confidence. This is by no means reserved to girls, but we do hear the "girls suck at math", we see boys dominating math contests or math-oriented high schools, and it leaves a mark. Here's another good article: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-science-success/201101/the-trouble-bright-girls https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-science-success/... The takeaway is that since girls are praised for results and boys for effort, "bright girls believe that their abilities are innate and unchangeable, while bright boys believe that they can develop ability through effort and practice", a vicious circle. Still personal, but not limited to me: neurodiversity. Girls are far more often undiagnozed for ADHD and autism. We cause less trouble, we get less understanding for not behaving accordingly to society's norms. Life without diagnosis was one without help and resources to deal with my symptoms. Instead, I was told my problems were my character flaws, which left little of my self-esteem. When you don't believe you can do it, you don't try yet another solution, you don't search yet another query, but you buy into the narratives mentioned above: your gender leaves you at a disadvantage and always will, you got As because you were gifted but this is how far your talents go, clearly, you're not made for this.