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https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/commentary/article-high-tax-california-much-more-attractive-to-entrepreneurs-than/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busi

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/commentary/article-high-tax-california-much-more-attractive-to-entrepreneurs-than/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/commentary/article-... Here's an article from Canada's most respected business and finance paper breaking it down. Don't forget that cost of real estate/rent in Toronto or Vancouver is not significantly cheaper than SF, salaries are lower, cost of living expenses (food, car insurance, clothes, electronics, cellphone plans, etc) are higher and you're still going to want to carry supplemental health insurance because OHIP does not cover everything.

jogjayr 6y ago
Marginal tax rates can be misleading, especially because (as the linked article itself states) they apply to different levels of income. Effective tax rates provide a clearer picture. Let's take one example. I plugged in $200k (CAD 270k, admittedly quite high for Ontario) of income to a California[1] and Ontario[2] tax calculator. For California, I used the following: "Filing status - Single, 401k deductions - $19k". Effective tax rate: 30%. For Ontario, I assumed CAD 26.5k in RRSP deductions. Effective tax rate: 35%. > cost of real estate/rent in Toronto or Vancouver is not significantly cheaper than SF Buying isn't cheaper. Renting is still significantly cheaper (at least by 1/3). > salaries are lower This is true. > cost of living expenses...are higher Cellphones and internet, yes. Everything else (yes, even milk and dairy products if you shop at Costco) is comparable to US prices. > you're still going to want to carry supplemental health insurance Most employers provide this. And vision/dental is far cheaper than paying for everything. I'm not saying you'll end up with more money if you live in Canada. I just want to point out that many of the fears of "higher taxes" and "higher CoL" may be a bit overblown. 1. https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-calculator https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-calculator 2. https://simpletax.ca/calculator https://simpletax.ca/calculator
- def8cefe 6y ago
  Dude I live in Canada lol. 5% of 270k CAD/200k USD is 10k USD. That's not an insignificant amount of money. Sales tax is higher here, 13% in Ontario vs ~7% in CA (varies by county or something weird). Things really are more expensive. Grab any book off your shelf and look at the Canadian and American MSRP, notice how it's still more expensive in Canada after accounting for currency conversion. Gas is more expensive. Alcohol and cigarettes are more expensive. The list goes on and on. Off the top of my head the only things I can think of that I know to be cheaper in Canada are maple syrup, propane and lumber. >Most employers provide this. And vision/dental is far cheaper than paying for everything. Most employers provide it in the states as well, but it's still money they spend on you instead of paying to you. Insurance needs to cover less here, but it is needed for much more than vision and dental. The biggest one I can think of would be prescription medications, there are more but I don't feel like grabbing a policy book off my shelf. >Buying isn't cheaper. Renting is still significantly cheaper (at least by 1/3). I haven't gone into any great detail verifying this but I doubt it is true. What cities and neighbourhoods were you comparing? Again I love my country but moving to a major Canadian city from a major American as a way to save money is a foolish idea.
  - jogjayr 6y ago
    > moving to a major Canadian city from a major American as a way to save money is a foolish idea. Please read my entire comment again. I did write "I'm not saying you'll end up with more money if you live in Canada." But people hear "Canada has higher taxes" and assume it's like 20+ percentage points higher, not 5 percentage points higher. > Gas is more expensive. Not really. It's the equivalent of USD 2.81/gal at a Toronto Costco[1]. It's $2.75 at the Sunnyvale Costco (cheapest gasoline) right now.[2] > What cities and neighbourhoods were you comparing? 2 bedroom in Downtown Vancouver - $3250 (presumably CAD, which is ~USD 2400)[3] 2 bedroom in Mountain View - $3600 [4] Same thing for Toronto. > Alcohol and cigarettes are more expensive Uh...don't smoke? It's expensive for your health too :-P. Yeah Ontario and BC liquor laws seem to be stuck in the 1940s sadly. But alcohol isn't usually a major component of most folks' household spending, so it's hardly a budget-killer. 1. https://www.gasbuddy.com/Station/130688 https://www.gasbuddy.com/Station/130688 2. https://www.costco.com/warehouse-locations/sunnyvale-ca-423.html https://www.costco.com/warehouse-locations/sunnyvale-ca-423.... 3. https://www.padmapper.com/apartments/vancouver-bc/downtown-vancouver https://www.padmapper.com/apartments/vancouver-bc/downtown-v... 4. https://www.padmapper.com/apartments/mountain-view-ca https://www.padmapper.com/apartments/mountain-view-ca
    - def8cefe 6y ago
      >2 bedroom in Downtown Vancouver - $3250 (presumably CAD, which is ~USD 2400)[3] This is one of those instances where things get lost in statistics without local knowledge. West Vancouver (part of downtown) is a very nice area a person who makes 200k USD would be happy to live. The Downtown Eastside (also a part of downtown), a short walk from West Vancouver, is littered with used 'insulin' needles, aggressive panhandlers and crime. Mountain View is a suburb (70k pop), Vancouver (700k pop) is the hub the suburbs extend from. >Not really. It's the equivalent of USD 2.81/gal at a Toronto Costco[1]. It's $2.75 at the Sunnyvale Costco (cheapest gasoline) right now.[2] Trust me man, gas is more expensive. Look at averages, not the lowest available price at any given time. There are times when you get lucky but overall it is more expensive. The divide gets larger when the commodity price of oil is higher (unlike right now).

jogjayr 6y ago

Marginal tax rates can be misleading, especially because (as the linked article itself states) they apply to different levels of income. Effective tax rates provide a clearer picture. Let's take one example. I plugged in $200k (CAD 270k, admittedly quite high for Ontario) of income to a California[1] and Ontario[2] tax calculator. For California, I used the following: "Filing status - Single, 401k deductions - $19k". Effective tax rate: 30%. For Ontario, I assumed CAD 26.5k in RRSP deductions. Effective tax rate: 35%. > cost of real estate/rent in Toronto or Vancouver is not significantly cheaper than SF Buying isn't cheaper. Renting is still significantly cheaper (at least by 1/3). > salaries are lower This is true. > cost of living expenses...are higher Cellphones and internet, yes. Everything else (yes, even milk and dairy products if you shop at Costco) is comparable to US prices. > you're still going to want to carry supplemental health insurance Most employers provide this. And vision/dental is far cheaper than paying for everything. I'm not saying you'll end up with more money if you live in Canada. I just want to point out that many of the fears of "higher taxes" and "higher CoL" may be a bit overblown. 1. https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-calculator https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-calculator 2. https://simpletax.ca/calculator https://simpletax.ca/calculator

def8cefe 6y ago
Dude I live in Canada lol. 5% of 270k CAD/200k USD is 10k USD. That's not an insignificant amount of money. Sales tax is higher here, 13% in Ontario vs ~7% in CA (varies by county or something weird). Things really are more expensive. Grab any book off your shelf and look at the Canadian and American MSRP, notice how it's still more expensive in Canada after accounting for currency conversion. Gas is more expensive. Alcohol and cigarettes are more expensive. The list goes on and on. Off the top of my head the only things I can think of that I know to be cheaper in Canada are maple syrup, propane and lumber. >Most employers provide this. And vision/dental is far cheaper than paying for everything. Most employers provide it in the states as well, but it's still money they spend on you instead of paying to you. Insurance needs to cover less here, but it is needed for much more than vision and dental. The biggest one I can think of would be prescription medications, there are more but I don't feel like grabbing a policy book off my shelf. >Buying isn't cheaper. Renting is still significantly cheaper (at least by 1/3). I haven't gone into any great detail verifying this but I doubt it is true. What cities and neighbourhoods were you comparing? Again I love my country but moving to a major Canadian city from a major American as a way to save money is a foolish idea.
- jogjayr 6y ago
  > moving to a major Canadian city from a major American as a way to save money is a foolish idea. Please read my entire comment again. I did write "I'm not saying you'll end up with more money if you live in Canada." But people hear "Canada has higher taxes" and assume it's like 20+ percentage points higher, not 5 percentage points higher. > Gas is more expensive. Not really. It's the equivalent of USD 2.81/gal at a Toronto Costco[1]. It's $2.75 at the Sunnyvale Costco (cheapest gasoline) right now.[2] > What cities and neighbourhoods were you comparing? 2 bedroom in Downtown Vancouver - $3250 (presumably CAD, which is ~USD 2400)[3] 2 bedroom in Mountain View - $3600 [4] Same thing for Toronto. > Alcohol and cigarettes are more expensive Uh...don't smoke? It's expensive for your health too :-P. Yeah Ontario and BC liquor laws seem to be stuck in the 1940s sadly. But alcohol isn't usually a major component of most folks' household spending, so it's hardly a budget-killer. 1. https://www.gasbuddy.com/Station/130688 https://www.gasbuddy.com/Station/130688 2. https://www.costco.com/warehouse-locations/sunnyvale-ca-423.html https://www.costco.com/warehouse-locations/sunnyvale-ca-423.... 3. https://www.padmapper.com/apartments/vancouver-bc/downtown-vancouver https://www.padmapper.com/apartments/vancouver-bc/downtown-v... 4. https://www.padmapper.com/apartments/mountain-view-ca https://www.padmapper.com/apartments/mountain-view-ca
  - def8cefe 6y ago
    >2 bedroom in Downtown Vancouver - $3250 (presumably CAD, which is ~USD 2400)[3] This is one of those instances where things get lost in statistics without local knowledge. West Vancouver (part of downtown) is a very nice area a person who makes 200k USD would be happy to live. The Downtown Eastside (also a part of downtown), a short walk from West Vancouver, is littered with used 'insulin' needles, aggressive panhandlers and crime. Mountain View is a suburb (70k pop), Vancouver (700k pop) is the hub the suburbs extend from. >Not really. It's the equivalent of USD 2.81/gal at a Toronto Costco[1]. It's $2.75 at the Sunnyvale Costco (cheapest gasoline) right now.[2] Trust me man, gas is more expensive. Look at averages, not the lowest available price at any given time. There are times when you get lucky but overall it is more expensive. The divide gets larger when the commodity price of oil is higher (unlike right now).