7 ms·

I find it mildly ironic that you link to a clip from the PBS NewsHour while, from my reading, you also imply that objective reporting or investigative reporting

I find it mildly ironic that you link to a clip from the PBS NewsHour while, from my reading, you also imply that objective reporting or investigative reporting don't exist or are dwindling. There are clearly some sources left that are worth their salt. In the US, I've found most PBS/NPR news broadcasts fairly objective, and the various NPR podcasts sometimes chart into investigative territory but there are other sources I rely on for this (e.g. ProPublica) which I don't expect to be just objective. I'm not sure I understood exactly what you meant about quality investigative journalism, so forgive me if I misread. I generally agree with your comment.

radomysisky 6y ago
NPR isn't explicitly biased, but it does lean left. A recent example: > Even In A Pandemic, WHO Believes That Public Protests Are Important > June 8, 2020 5:40 PM ET https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/06/08/872419850/even-in-a-pandemic-who-believes-that-public-protests-are-important https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/06/08/8724198... 14 minutes later > Trump To Restart Political Rallies This Month Despite Coronavirus Pandemic > June 8, 2020 5:54 PM ET https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/06/08/872588125/trump-to-restart-political-rallies-this-month-despite-coronavirus-pandemic https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/0...
- gurkendoktor 6y ago
  I don't think that's fair. The first article explains the WHO position, it does not endorse it.
  - leereeves 6y ago
    Compare the language in the first paragraph, describing the severity of the pandemic. In the context of left-wing political activity, just: > In the midst of the coronavirus pandemic In the context of right-wing political activity, a far more frightening description: > despite the deadly coronavirus pandemic, which continues to wreak havoc on the lives and livelihoods of households across the country. If NPR didn't lean left, the second article could have started with a tone similar to the first: in the midst of the coronavirus pandemic, the Trump campaign will address another pressing issue, restarting the American economy. The rally has prompted fears that the close contact of thousands of attendees could lead to a spike in case counts.
    - vertex-four 6y ago
      A campaign rally is not the same thing as a grassroots political protest by far. It's an organised event that an organiser explicitly invites people to, which primarily serves party politics rather than any particular political issue.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - f1refly 6y ago
        That still doesn't change the very obviously biased framing of the information. You can objectively describe one as more important, or more justified if you will, but manipulating the reader by speaking to his subconciousness like they did is not what should be expected from serious journalism.
        vertex-four 6y ago
        I disagree - stating the different situations in different ways is entirely reasonable and to be expected. Can you find me some "serious journalism", ever, which operated in the way you describe?
        read_if_gay_ 6y ago
        COVID-19 doesn't suddenly become a "different situation" depending on the political orientation of the mass gathering.
        vertex-four 6y ago
        It's not the political orientation of the mass gathering - it's the purpose. One is the President organising a gathering in an attempt to boost his election campaign - the other is some random people who came together to protest a specific thing.
        6y ago
- vertex-four 6y ago
  "Unbiased" or "factual" does not mean "we take both sides' opinions and put them next to each other without comment" - that's what the BBC does and it gives extremist, dangerous viewpoints far more legitimacy than they're worth. The fact that coronavirus got caught up in a bunch of political nonsense does not change that.
  - leereeves 6y ago
    That's precisely what unbiased and factual means. You're actually arguing that the media should be opinionated, which is a perfectly reasonable viewpoint, but please don't try to destroy the meaning of words to make disputing your preference impossible. Edit: I should clarify that I meant "unbiased and factual" together. Of course it's entirely possible to be both biased and factual, by choosing which facts to include.
    - cygx 6y ago
      It's not. You can reproduce information in an unbiased manner, but being factual involves fact-checking, which rarely yields a neutral result.
      - zozbot234 6y ago
        What's the more 'factual' language about the coronavirus pandemic in this case? It has to be one or the other, that's what unbiased means.
        cygx 6y ago
        You investigate specific claims. For example, take the claim that Covid-19 is "no worse than the flu". You could report on people making this claim, and state that others disagree. That can be considered an example of unbiased reporting, but it's nevertheless problematic as it may leave a reader with the impression that all reported-on claims are equally valid. Choice and presentation of opinions you report on is not a neutral acitvity. edit: I was distracted when I wrote my answer, so I missed some context. Was your question about differences in tone pointed out in a sibling comment[1]? Without having read the articles in question, at first glace, I'd considere this an example of journalistic bias. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23611963 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23611963
- pengstrom 6y ago
  It's not really inconsistent to believe fighting against racial injustice is more important than the reelection of a specific president?
  - nmfisher 6y ago
    Making any kind of judgment about what’s “important” or “worthy” is exactly what OP was saying - that media suffer from bias and rarely confine themselves to neutral reporting of facts.
    - pessimizer 6y ago
      > neutral reporting of facts. I don't know how this fiction has to be represented in every discussion. I don't want neutral unbiased reporting if it requires giving equal time to people who think that neutral unbiased reporting is real. The selection of what's important to report is literal biasing.
      - nmfisher 6y ago
        You're right, determining what's newsworthy is a biased process in and of itself. But that doesn't mean throwing the baby out with the bathwater, neutrality is still something we should constantly aim for, even if it's a moving target. For example, if a media outlet compare actual vs expected turnout for a Trump rally and report that turnout was "lower than expected", it would be plainly biased not to do the same comparison for Biden. The lines are obviously going to blur at some point (where 'balance' involves publishing something far less 'newsworthy'), but it's a lot like the definition of pornography - you know it when you see it. Besides, most modern media outlets are blatantly pushing their own narratives anyway - I'd say it's far more important that we fix this before moving on to the smaller problem of selection bias.
Hitton 6y ago
I consider Media Bias/Fact Check fairly objective and they rate NPR as having left-center bias. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/npr/ https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/npr/
- mercer 6y ago
  Having a bias doesn't in itself imply lack of objectivity, in relation to what we call 'facts' and 'truth'. It would seem somewhat of a coincidence if 'center' (politically) is right where that lies. Not that I'm saying that 'reality has a liberal bias', as some would. I personally think it has a left bias, but I'm not nearly certain enough of my opinions to make that claim!
- ardy42 6y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_Bias/Fact_Check https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_Bias/Fact_Check: > The Columbia Journalism Review describes Media Bias/Fact Check as an amateur attempt at categorizing media bias and Van Zandt as an "armchair media analyst."[3] The Poynter Institute notes, "Media Bias/Fact Check is a widely cited source for news stories and even studies about misinformation, despite the fact that its method is in no way scientific."[4]
  - Hitton 6y ago
    I doubt that we can achieve absolute objectivity, that's why I wrote that I consider it fairly objective, not that it is. That said I don't see a reason why should Columbia Journalism Review or Poynter Institute be any better arbiters of what is correct way to measure bias. (Especially because both are competition.) Also Poynter Institute has record of "weaknesses in the methodology".[1] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poynter_Institute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poynter_Institute
pps43 6y ago
> PBS/NPR news broadcasts fairly objective For example, listen for ", without providing evidence" in NPR broadcasts. Notice how selectively it is used.

radomysisky 6y ago

NPR isn't explicitly biased, but it does lean left. A recent example: > Even In A Pandemic, WHO Believes That Public Protests Are Important > June 8, 2020 5:40 PM ET https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/06/08/872419850/even-in-a-pandemic-who-believes-that-public-protests-are-important https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/06/08/8724198... 14 minutes later > Trump To Restart Political Rallies This Month Despite Coronavirus Pandemic > June 8, 2020 5:54 PM ET https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/06/08/872588125/trump-to-restart-political-rallies-this-month-despite-coronavirus-pandemic https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/0...

gurkendoktor 6y ago
I don't think that's fair. The first article explains the WHO position, it does not endorse it.
- leereeves 6y ago
  Compare the language in the first paragraph, describing the severity of the pandemic. In the context of left-wing political activity, just: > In the midst of the coronavirus pandemic In the context of right-wing political activity, a far more frightening description: > despite the deadly coronavirus pandemic, which continues to wreak havoc on the lives and livelihoods of households across the country. If NPR didn't lean left, the second article could have started with a tone similar to the first: in the midst of the coronavirus pandemic, the Trump campaign will address another pressing issue, restarting the American economy. The rally has prompted fears that the close contact of thousands of attendees could lead to a spike in case counts.
  - vertex-four 6y ago
    A campaign rally is not the same thing as a grassroots political protest by far. It's an organised event that an organiser explicitly invites people to, which primarily serves party politics rather than any particular political issue.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - f1refly 6y ago
      That still doesn't change the very obviously biased framing of the information. You can objectively describe one as more important, or more justified if you will, but manipulating the reader by speaking to his subconciousness like they did is not what should be expected from serious journalism.
      - vertex-four 6y ago
        I disagree - stating the different situations in different ways is entirely reasonable and to be expected. Can you find me some "serious journalism", ever, which operated in the way you describe?
        read_if_gay_ 6y ago
        COVID-19 doesn't suddenly become a "different situation" depending on the political orientation of the mass gathering.
        vertex-four 6y ago
        It's not the political orientation of the mass gathering - it's the purpose. One is the President organising a gathering in an attempt to boost his election campaign - the other is some random people who came together to protest a specific thing.
        6y ago
vertex-four 6y ago
"Unbiased" or "factual" does not mean "we take both sides' opinions and put them next to each other without comment" - that's what the BBC does and it gives extremist, dangerous viewpoints far more legitimacy than they're worth. The fact that coronavirus got caught up in a bunch of political nonsense does not change that.
- leereeves 6y ago
  That's precisely what unbiased and factual means. You're actually arguing that the media should be opinionated, which is a perfectly reasonable viewpoint, but please don't try to destroy the meaning of words to make disputing your preference impossible. Edit: I should clarify that I meant "unbiased and factual" together. Of course it's entirely possible to be both biased and factual, by choosing which facts to include.
  - cygx 6y ago
    It's not. You can reproduce information in an unbiased manner, but being factual involves fact-checking, which rarely yields a neutral result.
    - zozbot234 6y ago
      What's the more 'factual' language about the coronavirus pandemic in this case? It has to be one or the other, that's what unbiased means.
      - cygx 6y ago
        You investigate specific claims. For example, take the claim that Covid-19 is "no worse than the flu". You could report on people making this claim, and state that others disagree. That can be considered an example of unbiased reporting, but it's nevertheless problematic as it may leave a reader with the impression that all reported-on claims are equally valid. Choice and presentation of opinions you report on is not a neutral acitvity. edit: I was distracted when I wrote my answer, so I missed some context. Was your question about differences in tone pointed out in a sibling comment[1]? Without having read the articles in question, at first glace, I'd considere this an example of journalistic bias. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23611963 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23611963
pengstrom 6y ago
It's not really inconsistent to believe fighting against racial injustice is more important than the reelection of a specific president?
- nmfisher 6y ago
  Making any kind of judgment about what’s “important” or “worthy” is exactly what OP was saying - that media suffer from bias and rarely confine themselves to neutral reporting of facts.
  - pessimizer 6y ago
    > neutral reporting of facts. I don't know how this fiction has to be represented in every discussion. I don't want neutral unbiased reporting if it requires giving equal time to people who think that neutral unbiased reporting is real. The selection of what's important to report is literal biasing.
    - nmfisher 6y ago
      You're right, determining what's newsworthy is a biased process in and of itself. But that doesn't mean throwing the baby out with the bathwater, neutrality is still something we should constantly aim for, even if it's a moving target. For example, if a media outlet compare actual vs expected turnout for a Trump rally and report that turnout was "lower than expected", it would be plainly biased not to do the same comparison for Biden. The lines are obviously going to blur at some point (where 'balance' involves publishing something far less 'newsworthy'), but it's a lot like the definition of pornography - you know it when you see it. Besides, most modern media outlets are blatantly pushing their own narratives anyway - I'd say it's far more important that we fix this before moving on to the smaller problem of selection bias.

Hitton 6y ago

I consider Media Bias/Fact Check fairly objective and they rate NPR as having left-center bias. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/npr/ https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/npr/

mercer 6y ago
Having a bias doesn't in itself imply lack of objectivity, in relation to what we call 'facts' and 'truth'. It would seem somewhat of a coincidence if 'center' (politically) is right where that lies. Not that I'm saying that 'reality has a liberal bias', as some would. I personally think it has a left bias, but I'm not nearly certain enough of my opinions to make that claim!
ardy42 6y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_Bias/Fact_Check https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_Bias/Fact_Check: > The Columbia Journalism Review describes Media Bias/Fact Check as an amateur attempt at categorizing media bias and Van Zandt as an "armchair media analyst."[3] The Poynter Institute notes, "Media Bias/Fact Check is a widely cited source for news stories and even studies about misinformation, despite the fact that its method is in no way scientific."[4]
- Hitton 6y ago
  I doubt that we can achieve absolute objectivity, that's why I wrote that I consider it fairly objective, not that it is. That said I don't see a reason why should Columbia Journalism Review or Poynter Institute be any better arbiters of what is correct way to measure bias. (Especially because both are competition.) Also Poynter Institute has record of "weaknesses in the methodology".[1] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poynter_Institute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poynter_Institute

pps43 6y ago

> PBS/NPR news broadcasts fairly objective For example, listen for ", without providing evidence" in NPR broadcasts. Notice how selectively it is used.