7 ms·

And there's the rub. What is "quality investigative reporting" in an objective sense, when most of the MSM outlets are owned by oligarchs, or simply "toe the li

And there's the rub. What is "quality investigative reporting" in an objective sense, when most of the MSM outlets are owned by oligarchs, or simply "toe the line"? In theory I would gladly support the theory of "quality investigative reporting", but the reality is a propagandist machine where opinion pieces replaces actual unbiased, adjective-free objective news. Some examples of "oligarch news": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwA4k0E51Oo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwA4k0E51Oo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksb3KD6DfSI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksb3KD6DfSI As a former developer who worked closely on Thomson Reuters News feed (in the 00's), I've seen how there is almost zero fact checking for the information that appears on news feeds. Instead, news outlets trust the 'upstream' feeds and then quote the reports verbatim. To be fair, there are those who are really awesome at doing research and releasing information that are part of the MSM. Unfortunately, there are plenty others who are not affiliated with MSM news outlets and hence aren't regarded as "reporters" per-se. These latter ones are regularly attacked via "fact checking" websites as a way to discredit them. An article on the latter is here: https://www.corbettreport.com/episode-381-who-will-fact-check-the-fact-checkers/ https://www.corbettreport.com/episode-381-who-will-fact-chec... In short, there's a bunch of information out there and without each and every news report clearly citing original sources, then MSM or not, it must be regarded as suspect. So for "quality investigative reporting", the actual reports must rigorously cite objective sources.

vinay427 6y ago
I find it mildly ironic that you link to a clip from the PBS NewsHour while, from my reading, you also imply that objective reporting or investigative reporting don't exist or are dwindling. There are clearly some sources left that are worth their salt. In the US, I've found most PBS/NPR news broadcasts fairly objective, and the various NPR podcasts sometimes chart into investigative territory but there are other sources I rely on for this (e.g. ProPublica) which I don't expect to be just objective. I'm not sure I understood exactly what you meant about quality investigative journalism, so forgive me if I misread. I generally agree with your comment.
- radomysisky 6y ago
  NPR isn't explicitly biased, but it does lean left. A recent example: > Even In A Pandemic, WHO Believes That Public Protests Are Important > June 8, 2020 5:40 PM ET https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/06/08/872419850/even-in-a-pandemic-who-believes-that-public-protests-are-important https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/06/08/8724198... 14 minutes later > Trump To Restart Political Rallies This Month Despite Coronavirus Pandemic > June 8, 2020 5:54 PM ET https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/06/08/872588125/trump-to-restart-political-rallies-this-month-despite-coronavirus-pandemic https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/0...
  - gurkendoktor 6y ago
    I don't think that's fair. The first article explains the WHO position, it does not endorse it.
    - leereeves 6y ago
      Compare the language in the first paragraph, describing the severity of the pandemic. In the context of left-wing political activity, just: > In the midst of the coronavirus pandemic In the context of right-wing political activity, a far more frightening description: > despite the deadly coronavirus pandemic, which continues to wreak havoc on the lives and livelihoods of households across the country. If NPR didn't lean left, the second article could have started with a tone similar to the first: in the midst of the coronavirus pandemic, the Trump campaign will address another pressing issue, restarting the American economy. The rally has prompted fears that the close contact of thousands of attendees could lead to a spike in case counts.
      - vertex-four 6y ago
        A campaign rally is not the same thing as a grassroots political protest by far. It's an organised event that an organiser explicitly invites people to, which primarily serves party politics rather than any particular political issue.
nailer 6y ago
> What is "quality investigative reporting" in an objective sense, when most of the MSM outlets are owned by oligarchs, or simply "toe the line"? I don't think better ownership changes anything. The Guardian is owned by a trust, yet falsely reported Mark Duggan was unarmed in a front page headline (if you're unaware, this was false and the Gruan had to retract the claim after a PCC ruling).
- gurkendoktor 6y ago
  Not sure why you're being downvoted. The biggest German left-wing newspaper (taz) is owned by a cooperative. If anything, I find it more annoyingly partisan than other newspapers. It's a hard problem.
  - kungtotte 6y ago
    The problem isn't bias/partisanship. You can't have any one source be truly unbiased and if you're aware of the politics behind any given source you can neutralise it and temper it with multiple sources from opposite camps. The problem is that we're not being delivered news-as-information, we're sold news-as-entertainment.
  - nailer 6y ago
    In some parts of tech people treat politics as a team sport, so criticism of their 'team' (even pointing out mistakes acknowledged by the publications) is considered to be punishable.
- Mindwipe 6y ago
  Indeed. The Guardian Trust has also ruled in editorial complaints that factual inaccuracies in the opinion section are fine, which seems to be to be incredibly irresponsible.
machinehermit 6y ago
IMO we need some kind of data driven media/data driven reporting/data driven newspaper type thing. Then we can have reporting/debate/conversation on the meaning of the data but without the filters we use to have in place all reporting has essentially become meaningless, untrustworthy, opinion pieces.

vinay427 6y ago

I find it mildly ironic that you link to a clip from the PBS NewsHour while, from my reading, you also imply that objective reporting or investigative reporting don't exist or are dwindling. There are clearly some sources left that are worth their salt. In the US, I've found most PBS/NPR news broadcasts fairly objective, and the various NPR podcasts sometimes chart into investigative territory but there are other sources I rely on for this (e.g. ProPublica) which I don't expect to be just objective. I'm not sure I understood exactly what you meant about quality investigative journalism, so forgive me if I misread. I generally agree with your comment.

radomysisky 6y ago
NPR isn't explicitly biased, but it does lean left. A recent example: > Even In A Pandemic, WHO Believes That Public Protests Are Important > June 8, 2020 5:40 PM ET https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/06/08/872419850/even-in-a-pandemic-who-believes-that-public-protests-are-important https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/06/08/8724198... 14 minutes later > Trump To Restart Political Rallies This Month Despite Coronavirus Pandemic > June 8, 2020 5:54 PM ET https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/06/08/872588125/trump-to-restart-political-rallies-this-month-despite-coronavirus-pandemic https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/0...
- gurkendoktor 6y ago
  I don't think that's fair. The first article explains the WHO position, it does not endorse it.
  - leereeves 6y ago
    Compare the language in the first paragraph, describing the severity of the pandemic. In the context of left-wing political activity, just: > In the midst of the coronavirus pandemic In the context of right-wing political activity, a far more frightening description: > despite the deadly coronavirus pandemic, which continues to wreak havoc on the lives and livelihoods of households across the country. If NPR didn't lean left, the second article could have started with a tone similar to the first: in the midst of the coronavirus pandemic, the Trump campaign will address another pressing issue, restarting the American economy. The rally has prompted fears that the close contact of thousands of attendees could lead to a spike in case counts.
    - vertex-four 6y ago
      A campaign rally is not the same thing as a grassroots political protest by far. It's an organised event that an organiser explicitly invites people to, which primarily serves party politics rather than any particular political issue.

nailer 6y ago

> What is "quality investigative reporting" in an objective sense, when most of the MSM outlets are owned by oligarchs, or simply "toe the line"? I don't think better ownership changes anything. The Guardian is owned by a trust, yet falsely reported Mark Duggan was unarmed in a front page headline (if you're unaware, this was false and the Gruan had to retract the claim after a PCC ruling).

gurkendoktor 6y ago
Not sure why you're being downvoted. The biggest German left-wing newspaper (taz) is owned by a cooperative. If anything, I find it more annoyingly partisan than other newspapers. It's a hard problem.
- kungtotte 6y ago
  The problem isn't bias/partisanship. You can't have any one source be truly unbiased and if you're aware of the politics behind any given source you can neutralise it and temper it with multiple sources from opposite camps. The problem is that we're not being delivered news-as-information, we're sold news-as-entertainment.
- nailer 6y ago
  In some parts of tech people treat politics as a team sport, so criticism of their 'team' (even pointing out mistakes acknowledged by the publications) is considered to be punishable.
Mindwipe 6y ago
Indeed. The Guardian Trust has also ruled in editorial complaints that factual inaccuracies in the opinion section are fine, which seems to be to be incredibly irresponsible.

machinehermit 6y ago

IMO we need some kind of data driven media/data driven reporting/data driven newspaper type thing. Then we can have reporting/debate/conversation on the meaning of the data but without the filters we use to have in place all reporting has essentially become meaningless, untrustworthy, opinion pieces.