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I do hope AMD does well here as Apple's chips with all their custom silicon, T3 etc, mean the death of booting anything but apple signed OS images on that, forg

I do hope AMD does well here as Apple's chips with all their custom silicon, T3 etc, mean the death of booting anything but apple signed OS images on that, forget Linux. And that's not the future I am willing to buy into.

thetinguy 6y ago
The presentations today specifically mentioned booting other operating systems.
- AsyncAwait 6y ago
  No it didn't. It mentioned running Linux in a VM, which isn't the same thing.
  - eecc 6y ago
    Do you complain if you’re running your OS on a CPU micro architetture VM abstraction?
    - nieve 6y ago
      I'm somewhat confused by this rhetorical question since the microcode of processor is vastly different than the userspace & kernel of Mac OS. Running an OS bare metal versus in a VM on top of Mac OS are different across a wide array of things. At a minimum performance is lower and less predictable on the VM; you now have two different OS's updates to worry about breakage with on top of their mutual interface (ask anyone who's done serious Linux dev work on a Mac); you have two different sets of security policies to worry about; the low level tools to debug performance in a VM don't have the level of access they do on bare metal; and if you're working with hardware for linux servers & devices in a VM you are going to have to go bare metall sooner or later. The abstractions are leaky, the VM is not a pristine environment floating on top of some vaguely well-defined architecture. The software in one has two extra layers (VM software & OS) between it and the actual platform and all this is before you start hitting weird corner cases with cpu architecture differences in the layers.
      - eecc 6y ago
        Hmm, really? Since Windows 10 your desktop runs in a guest domain, while the kernel running the drivers is isolated. Since about 5 years Apple provides this kit: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/hypervisor https://developer.apple.com/documentation/hypervisor Yeah, you got to use the hardware drivers from Apple unless it also supports PCI pass through, not sure but with the current user base I guess nobody would do that anyway. I expect Apple to eventually run their ring-1 off the T chip, with everything else from a VM abstraction. It’s just the natural evolution of the UEFI approach, and Apple being themselves they’re doing it “their way” without waiting for the crossfire infested industry committees to play along.
- deepGem 6y ago
  Nope there was no mention of booting another OS. Craig talked about native virtualization that can be used to run Docker containers and other OS runtimes.
  - rahkiin 6y ago
    Yes there was in the State of the Union. Also mentioned was booting another OS from an external drive.
  - shep101 6y ago
    Watch the other keynote from wwdc they do mention it lol
anoncow 6y ago
Thank you for expressing this. As much as I like Apple and the wonderful approach they have to design, something felt amiss. This is what I wanted to express.
- skyzyx 6y ago
  See also: Chromebooks and Surfaces.

thetinguy 6y ago

The presentations today specifically mentioned booting other operating systems.

AsyncAwait 6y ago
No it didn't. It mentioned running Linux in a VM, which isn't the same thing.
- eecc 6y ago
  Do you complain if you’re running your OS on a CPU micro architetture VM abstraction?
  - nieve 6y ago
    I'm somewhat confused by this rhetorical question since the microcode of processor is vastly different than the userspace & kernel of Mac OS. Running an OS bare metal versus in a VM on top of Mac OS are different across a wide array of things. At a minimum performance is lower and less predictable on the VM; you now have two different OS's updates to worry about breakage with on top of their mutual interface (ask anyone who's done serious Linux dev work on a Mac); you have two different sets of security policies to worry about; the low level tools to debug performance in a VM don't have the level of access they do on bare metal; and if you're working with hardware for linux servers & devices in a VM you are going to have to go bare metall sooner or later. The abstractions are leaky, the VM is not a pristine environment floating on top of some vaguely well-defined architecture. The software in one has two extra layers (VM software & OS) between it and the actual platform and all this is before you start hitting weird corner cases with cpu architecture differences in the layers.
    - eecc 6y ago
      Hmm, really? Since Windows 10 your desktop runs in a guest domain, while the kernel running the drivers is isolated. Since about 5 years Apple provides this kit: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/hypervisor https://developer.apple.com/documentation/hypervisor Yeah, you got to use the hardware drivers from Apple unless it also supports PCI pass through, not sure but with the current user base I guess nobody would do that anyway. I expect Apple to eventually run their ring-1 off the T chip, with everything else from a VM abstraction. It’s just the natural evolution of the UEFI approach, and Apple being themselves they’re doing it “their way” without waiting for the crossfire infested industry committees to play along.
deepGem 6y ago
Nope there was no mention of booting another OS. Craig talked about native virtualization that can be used to run Docker containers and other OS runtimes.
- rahkiin 6y ago
  Yes there was in the State of the Union. Also mentioned was booting another OS from an external drive.
- shep101 6y ago
  Watch the other keynote from wwdc they do mention it lol

anoncow 6y ago

Thank you for expressing this. As much as I like Apple and the wonderful approach they have to design, something felt amiss. This is what I wanted to express.

skyzyx 6y ago
See also: Chromebooks and Surfaces.