5 ms·

Really hard to read Kafka, frankly, but I love the major stories of his ("The Trial", "Metamorphosis", etc) and his many short stories so much that I've been tr

Really hard to read Kafka, frankly, but I love the major stories of his ("The Trial", "Metamorphosis", etc) and his many short stories so much that I've been trying to learn German (and French, though not necessarily at the same time) over the last year and a half. What I've learned is that I can quite easily pick up meaning and basically understand German when I hear it, about the same when I read it, but I still can't speak it at all - at least not conversationally. I could get around Germany in an emergency if I ran into any Germans that don't actually speak English, which I understand to be a rare occurrence, but that's not really the point. I think I've discovered I need to be way, way more fluent in German than I expected to be able to read and enjoy (such as you can) Kafka, and I've decided I probably need to live abroad for several years to achieve this goal. Of course, it would be kind of crazy (but not necessarily Kafkaesque) to live in a foreign country for several years just so you could understand one of its authors in his original language. German was of course not his real original language, but you get my point.

pvg 6y ago
German was his real original language, as much as standardized German is anyone's real original language. Edit: Also, if you want to check out something short, engaging, relevant and easier on the German, give Ödön von Horvát's Jugend ohne Gott a whirl.
- remarkEon 6y ago
  I was under the impression his original language was closer to Yiddish, but if I'm wrong in that regard I'll recant.
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    Like hindi and urdu, the biggest difference between yiddish and other german dialects is the script[1]. I have "Velo" and "Poulet", so my loan words are not as exotic as the hebrew/aramaic ("tukhes") and eastern european ("ну") influences on yiddish, but all the dialects[2] have loan words ("Homeoffice") and most have their own unique terms ("Rundumeli"). https://yi.wikipedia.org/wiki/הויפט_זייט https://yi.wikipedia.org/wiki/הויפט_זייט is interesting if you can read hebrew script. https://als.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Houptsyte_(Schwyzerdütsch) https://als.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Houptsyte_(Schwyzer... will give you some idea why I recommended starting with the NZZ, which almost writes in standardised german. [1] it was yiddish that got me into russian, because it's easier to find more than just Andrews Sisters on YouTube in cyrillic: eg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWeqbs9OFX0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWeqbs9OFX0 also recommended, for any germanophone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH1fERC_504 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH1fERC_504 (or anglophones who don't mind subtitles) [2] in tourist hiking areas, a popular past-time is to guess where people are from by how they greet on the trail.
    - ceilingcorner 6y ago
      The difference between High German and Yiddish is much larger than between Urdu and Hindi.
  - pvg 6y ago
    He grew up in a multilingual environment, 'his original language' is not a very specific thing. He was educated in German, his family was of a social standing in which German was essential. They also spoke a variant of Yiddish - itself a (give or take) German dialect.
    - CaptainZapp 6y ago
      He was also totally fluent in Czech. I'm glad, though, that he wrote in German. It's always nice to read authors in their original language.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  Toll! Jugend ohne Gott even got a "+" review here: https://sammlungen.ulb.uni-muenster.de/hd/periodical/pageview/2539959 https://sammlungen.ulb.uni-muenster.de/hd/periodical/pagevie... reviewer's coding scheme explained on: https://sammlungen.ulb.uni-muenster.de/hd/periodical/pageview/2539898 https://sammlungen.ulb.uni-muenster.de/hd/periodical/pagevie... An organisation has really "made it" when they get a special font dingbat. Not even Prince Rogers Nelson managed that...
fit2rule 6y ago
I can't encourage you to move to another country and learn its language for the sake of a single author, enough. Such life experiences always produce a significant effect on ones life. Have done it a couple times, by the way ..
082349872349872 6y ago
There used to be a few books, aimed at academics reading the literature, eg Jannach, "German for Reading Knowledge." (on reading vs speaking: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23582262 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23582262 ) Not to discourage you from a Sprachaufenthalt (ganz im gegenteil), but you can prepare for one by following germanophone papers. (which have the advantage that you've probably read many stories in your native tongue beforehand ... also one can start small by just picking out nouns at first, which won't the case for latin-1, but is very useful when learning a new script) https://www.faz.net/aktuell/ https://www.faz.net/aktuell/ https://www.nzz.ch https://www.nzz.ch (in Schrifttüütsch, conveniently for you) I don't normally follow AT, maybe https://kurier.at https://kurier.at ? Hals und Beinbruch! ==== Edit: there are a couple of amusing anecdotes on german culture in http://www.gutenberg.org/files/48612/48612-h/48612-h.htm http://www.gutenberg.org/files/48612/48612-h/48612-h.htm which I find stereotypical to this day: > Germans liked things done in an official and formal manner, even in the midst of chaos, catastrophe and defeat. The Allies obliged, and gave the Germans various forms of very official-looking "surrender passes," ... http://www.gutenberg.org/files/48612/48612-h/images/p4.jpg http://www.gutenberg.org/files/48612/48612-h/images/p4.jpg > The Americans and British dropped leaflets on Berlin ... [with] key numbers in the corners, showing to which series they belonged ... Nazi authorities [sent] Hitlerjugend and Hitlermädel out to pick up the leaflets and turn them in for destruction. ... What the Nazis discovered—too late, too late—was that the schoolchildren had begun collecting the leaflets, using the key numbers to make up perfect sets. Some numbers were rarer than others, so that the Hitlerite children swapped Allied leaflets all over Berlin, trying to make up attractive albums. Mother and Father—who did not dare pick the leaflets up off the street for fear the Gestapo might be watching—found a convenient file, reasonably complete, in the room of little Fritzl or Ermintrude! Undoubtedly not just a loose file, but neatly punched in a two-ring binder. When Oceania starts to always have been at war with Eurasia (that is, if they read their own books, which Dr. Linebarger doubts), they'll have to make up propaganda sets in the form of Panini cards.
- masswerk 6y ago
  I'd suggest https://derstandard.at https://derstandard.at, which hasn't only the biggest German speaking forum annexed to it, but the comments are also in the Austrian flavor of the language (with significant opportunity to familiarize with frequent typos and typical failures in grammar.)
kanzenryu2 6y ago
Why does the Metamorphosis spend all that time talking about furniture? I just don't get it.
tafox 6y ago
I pretty much did this. Don't forget, there are tons of other amazing German authors, just to name a few: Kant, Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Schiller, Goethe... I think German literature is to this day still probably the best in the world. I also find Math in German way easier and more beautiful than in English. If "clean code" was a thing for languages, German grammar would seem to me to be one of the cleanest.
- remarkEon 6y ago
  >I also find Math in German way easier and more beautiful than in English. Can you expand on this? >If "clean code" was a thing for languages, German grammar would seem to me to be one of the cleanest. Can't agree more here.
  - projektfu 6y ago
    Style, on the other hand, leaves something to be desired.
- icelancer 6y ago
  >> If "clean code" was a thing for languages, German grammar would seem to me to be one of the cleanest. Java was born to be written in German given the exceptionally long words that appear in both :)
snapetom 6y ago
As a near-native English speaker, I took German in various degrees from middle school to college. Along the way, I peppered it with French and Spanish. I was terrible with the romance languages, like nearly failed. Oral, written, reading, you name it. Just terrible all around. Couldn't get it. I'd freeze when trying to construct a sentence orally. German, on the other hand, I found to be pretty easy. Being the parent of English, the grammar is essentially the same. I'm the kind of person that needs to know the rules before I jump in, so nailing the grammar is essential. Immersion programs like Rosetta Stone requires a leap of faith, which frankly scares me. The vocabulary and verb conjugations were hard, but that was mainly a matter of straight memorization. The pronunciation is very consistent - way more consistent than English. Learning German actually helped me understand English more.

pvg 6y ago

German was his real original language, as much as standardized German is anyone's real original language. Edit: Also, if you want to check out something short, engaging, relevant and easier on the German, give Ödön von Horvát's Jugend ohne Gott a whirl.

remarkEon 6y ago
I was under the impression his original language was closer to Yiddish, but if I'm wrong in that regard I'll recant.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  Like hindi and urdu, the biggest difference between yiddish and other german dialects is the script[1]. I have "Velo" and "Poulet", so my loan words are not as exotic as the hebrew/aramaic ("tukhes") and eastern european ("ну") influences on yiddish, but all the dialects[2] have loan words ("Homeoffice") and most have their own unique terms ("Rundumeli"). https://yi.wikipedia.org/wiki/הויפט_זייט https://yi.wikipedia.org/wiki/הויפט_זייט is interesting if you can read hebrew script. https://als.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Houptsyte_(Schwyzerdütsch) https://als.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Houptsyte_(Schwyzer... will give you some idea why I recommended starting with the NZZ, which almost writes in standardised german. [1] it was yiddish that got me into russian, because it's easier to find more than just Andrews Sisters on YouTube in cyrillic: eg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWeqbs9OFX0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWeqbs9OFX0 also recommended, for any germanophone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH1fERC_504 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH1fERC_504 (or anglophones who don't mind subtitles) [2] in tourist hiking areas, a popular past-time is to guess where people are from by how they greet on the trail.
  - ceilingcorner 6y ago
    The difference between High German and Yiddish is much larger than between Urdu and Hindi.
- pvg 6y ago
  He grew up in a multilingual environment, 'his original language' is not a very specific thing. He was educated in German, his family was of a social standing in which German was essential. They also spoke a variant of Yiddish - itself a (give or take) German dialect.
  - CaptainZapp 6y ago
    He was also totally fluent in Czech. I'm glad, though, that he wrote in German. It's always nice to read authors in their original language.
082349872349872 6y ago
Toll! Jugend ohne Gott even got a "+" review here: https://sammlungen.ulb.uni-muenster.de/hd/periodical/pageview/2539959 https://sammlungen.ulb.uni-muenster.de/hd/periodical/pagevie... reviewer's coding scheme explained on: https://sammlungen.ulb.uni-muenster.de/hd/periodical/pageview/2539898 https://sammlungen.ulb.uni-muenster.de/hd/periodical/pagevie... An organisation has really "made it" when they get a special font dingbat. Not even Prince Rogers Nelson managed that...

fit2rule 6y ago

I can't encourage you to move to another country and learn its language for the sake of a single author, enough. Such life experiences always produce a significant effect on ones life. Have done it a couple times, by the way ..

082349872349872 6y ago

There used to be a few books, aimed at academics reading the literature, eg Jannach, "German for Reading Knowledge." (on reading vs speaking: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23582262 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23582262 ) Not to discourage you from a Sprachaufenthalt (ganz im gegenteil), but you can prepare for one by following germanophone papers. (which have the advantage that you've probably read many stories in your native tongue beforehand ... also one can start small by just picking out nouns at first, which won't the case for latin-1, but is very useful when learning a new script) https://www.faz.net/aktuell/ https://www.faz.net/aktuell/ https://www.nzz.ch https://www.nzz.ch (in Schrifttüütsch, conveniently for you) I don't normally follow AT, maybe https://kurier.at https://kurier.at ? Hals und Beinbruch! ==== Edit: there are a couple of amusing anecdotes on german culture in http://www.gutenberg.org/files/48612/48612-h/48612-h.htm http://www.gutenberg.org/files/48612/48612-h/48612-h.htm which I find stereotypical to this day: > Germans liked things done in an official and formal manner, even in the midst of chaos, catastrophe and defeat. The Allies obliged, and gave the Germans various forms of very official-looking "surrender passes," ... http://www.gutenberg.org/files/48612/48612-h/images/p4.jpg http://www.gutenberg.org/files/48612/48612-h/images/p4.jpg > The Americans and British dropped leaflets on Berlin ... [with] key numbers in the corners, showing to which series they belonged ... Nazi authorities [sent] Hitlerjugend and Hitlermädel out to pick up the leaflets and turn them in for destruction. ... What the Nazis discovered—too late, too late—was that the schoolchildren had begun collecting the leaflets, using the key numbers to make up perfect sets. Some numbers were rarer than others, so that the Hitlerite children swapped Allied leaflets all over Berlin, trying to make up attractive albums. Mother and Father—who did not dare pick the leaflets up off the street for fear the Gestapo might be watching—found a convenient file, reasonably complete, in the room of little Fritzl or Ermintrude! Undoubtedly not just a loose file, but neatly punched in a two-ring binder. When Oceania starts to always have been at war with Eurasia (that is, if they read their own books, which Dr. Linebarger doubts), they'll have to make up propaganda sets in the form of Panini cards.

masswerk 6y ago
I'd suggest https://derstandard.at https://derstandard.at, which hasn't only the biggest German speaking forum annexed to it, but the comments are also in the Austrian flavor of the language (with significant opportunity to familiarize with frequent typos and typical failures in grammar.)

kanzenryu2 6y ago

Why does the Metamorphosis spend all that time talking about furniture? I just don't get it.

tafox 6y ago

I pretty much did this. Don't forget, there are tons of other amazing German authors, just to name a few: Kant, Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Schiller, Goethe... I think German literature is to this day still probably the best in the world. I also find Math in German way easier and more beautiful than in English. If "clean code" was a thing for languages, German grammar would seem to me to be one of the cleanest.

remarkEon 6y ago
>I also find Math in German way easier and more beautiful than in English. Can you expand on this? >If "clean code" was a thing for languages, German grammar would seem to me to be one of the cleanest. Can't agree more here.
- projektfu 6y ago
  Style, on the other hand, leaves something to be desired.
icelancer 6y ago
>> If "clean code" was a thing for languages, German grammar would seem to me to be one of the cleanest. Java was born to be written in German given the exceptionally long words that appear in both :)

snapetom 6y ago

As a near-native English speaker, I took German in various degrees from middle school to college. Along the way, I peppered it with French and Spanish. I was terrible with the romance languages, like nearly failed. Oral, written, reading, you name it. Just terrible all around. Couldn't get it. I'd freeze when trying to construct a sentence orally. German, on the other hand, I found to be pretty easy. Being the parent of English, the grammar is essentially the same. I'm the kind of person that needs to know the rules before I jump in, so nailing the grammar is essential. Immersion programs like Rosetta Stone requires a leap of faith, which frankly scares me. The vocabulary and verb conjugations were hard, but that was mainly a matter of straight memorization. The pronunciation is very consistent - way more consistent than English. Learning German actually helped me understand English more.