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This could mean the following things. 1. If done correctly, non-Apple laptops may become significantly less attractive. Just like Android phones. 2. Intel may

This could mean the following things. 1. If done correctly, non-Apple laptops may become significantly less attractive. Just like Android phones. 2. Intel may be in for a tough time, especially with AMD winning big on the console and laptop fronts recently. 3. AMD and Intel may have to compete for survival and to save the non-Apple ecosystem in general. If AMD/Intel can consistently and significantly beat Apple here, it may mean that the non-Apple ecosystem survives and even thrives. It may even mean that Apple looks at Intel/AMD as an option for Pro MacBooks in the future. However, this does seem a little less likely. 4. This could also herald the entry of Qualcomm and the likes into laptop territory. Looks like a very interesting and possibly industry changing move. This could potentially severely affect Intel/AMD and Microsoft. And all these players will have to play this new scenario very carefully.

querez 6y ago
> 1. If done correctly, non-Apple laptops may become significantly less attractive. Just like Android phones. What makes Android phones less attractive, in your opinion?
- spullara 6y ago
  The low end iPhone SE compares favorably with the highest end Samsung Galaxy. https://www.androidauthority.com/iphone-se-vs-most-powerful-android-galaxy-s20-ultra-1120575/ https://www.androidauthority.com/iphone-se-vs-most-powerful-...
  - zambal 6y ago
    It's nice that the iPhone SE performs so well, but there's more to a phone than just the CPU.
    - LoSboccacc 6y ago
      > only one camera, just a 4.7-inch display, and less than Full HD screen resolution cpu selection is likely coming from industrialization concerns, less production line to maintain, less price per unit at volume etc, but they're going to beat that drum loud and proud for all it's worth, meanwhile the phone is cheap in area that in 2020 _do_ matter.
  - leoedin 6y ago
    Do many people care about phone CPU performance? Sure, it needs to be good enough, but after that it's really far down on the list of things that matter. What matters to everyone I know is screen size, camera quality and that a really small selection of apps (messaging, maps, email, browser, bank app) work well. Raw CPU performance is only a very abstract concept.
    - nmfisher 6y ago
      Raw CPU performance, perhaps not. But people definitely do care about a specific set of user-facing, ML-driven functionality - think speech recognition, speech synthesis, realtime video filtering, and so on. Many of these are only barely possible on "pre-neural" mobile ARM CPUs, and at a significant cost to power consumption. Developing for newer devices is like night and day.
      - martinald 6y ago
        Not sure that's true to be honest. Speech recognition on my old Pixel 2 is miles ahead of anything I've seen on any iPhone, which are 2-4x faster.
        cesarb 6y ago
        > > Many of these are only barely possible on "pre-neural" mobile ARM CPUs > Speech recognition on my old Pixel 2 I don't think the Pixel 2 can be called "pre-neural". "[...] The PVC is a fully programmable image, vision and AI multi-core domain-specific architecture (DSA) for mobile devices and in future for IoT.[2] It first appeared in the Google Pixel 2 and 2 XL [...]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel_Visual_Core https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel_Visual_Core
        nmfisher 6y ago
        Google's speech recognition is damn impressive, but I'm talking performance/power consumption, not "quality". Sticking a 2080 into an iPhone won't give you better speech recognition results, but it will give you bad results faster.
AsyncAwait 6y ago
I do hope AMD does well here as Apple's chips with all their custom silicon, T3 etc, mean the death of booting anything but apple signed OS images on that, forget Linux. And that's not the future I am willing to buy into.
- thetinguy 6y ago
  The presentations today specifically mentioned booting other operating systems.
  - AsyncAwait 6y ago
    No it didn't. It mentioned running Linux in a VM, which isn't the same thing.
    - eecc 6y ago
      Do you complain if you’re running your OS on a CPU micro architetture VM abstraction?
      - nieve 6y ago
        I'm somewhat confused by this rhetorical question since the microcode of processor is vastly different than the userspace & kernel of Mac OS. Running an OS bare metal versus in a VM on top of Mac OS are different across a wide array of things. At a minimum performance is lower and less predictable on the VM; you now have two different OS's updates to worry about breakage with on top of their mutual interface (ask anyone who's done serious Linux dev work on a Mac); you have two different sets of security policies to worry about; the low level tools to debug performance in a VM don't have the level of access they do on bare metal; and if you're working with hardware for linux servers & devices in a VM you are going to have to go bare metall sooner or later. The abstractions are leaky, the VM is not a pristine environment floating on top of some vaguely well-defined architecture. The software in one has two extra layers (VM software & OS) between it and the actual platform and all this is before you start hitting weird corner cases with cpu architecture differences in the layers.
kwanbix 6y ago
> 1. If done correctly, non-Apple laptops may become significantly less attractive. Just like Android phones. What are you talking about? Android has about 72% of worldwide market share, so clearly Android phones are not significantly less attractive. And I am not an Android fanboy, my first two phones were iPhone 1 and iPhone 3GS, and I still consider them very good phones.
- ponker 6y ago
  Market share and attractiveness aren’t necessarily related. A Kia isn’t as attractive to its target customer as a Mercedes but outsells it because of price.
  - eertami 6y ago
    Speak for yourself. If I'm going to buy a boring car, I certainly would take a Kia over a Mercedes, even if both were free.
  - TLightful 6y ago
    Mercedes are completely outdated. Nice leather, that's it.
    - asguy 6y ago
      Mercedes would like to have a word with you.[0] [0] - Mercedes to debut Formula 1 MGU-H technology in AMG road cars - https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.mercedes-to-debut-formula-1-mgu-h-technology-in-amg-road-cars.6ha9y57tg2aY33xZsWQjwH.html https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.mercedes-to-debut...
      - lowdose 6y ago
        A hack on the turbo of an ICE car sounds pretty out dated to me.
        asguy 6y ago

querez 6y ago

> 1. If done correctly, non-Apple laptops may become significantly less attractive. Just like Android phones. What makes Android phones less attractive, in your opinion?

spullara 6y ago
The low end iPhone SE compares favorably with the highest end Samsung Galaxy. https://www.androidauthority.com/iphone-se-vs-most-powerful-android-galaxy-s20-ultra-1120575/ https://www.androidauthority.com/iphone-se-vs-most-powerful-...
- zambal 6y ago
  It's nice that the iPhone SE performs so well, but there's more to a phone than just the CPU.
  - LoSboccacc 6y ago
    > only one camera, just a 4.7-inch display, and less than Full HD screen resolution cpu selection is likely coming from industrialization concerns, less production line to maintain, less price per unit at volume etc, but they're going to beat that drum loud and proud for all it's worth, meanwhile the phone is cheap in area that in 2020 _do_ matter.
- leoedin 6y ago
  Do many people care about phone CPU performance? Sure, it needs to be good enough, but after that it's really far down on the list of things that matter. What matters to everyone I know is screen size, camera quality and that a really small selection of apps (messaging, maps, email, browser, bank app) work well. Raw CPU performance is only a very abstract concept.
  - nmfisher 6y ago
    Raw CPU performance, perhaps not. But people definitely do care about a specific set of user-facing, ML-driven functionality - think speech recognition, speech synthesis, realtime video filtering, and so on. Many of these are only barely possible on "pre-neural" mobile ARM CPUs, and at a significant cost to power consumption. Developing for newer devices is like night and day.
    - martinald 6y ago
      Not sure that's true to be honest. Speech recognition on my old Pixel 2 is miles ahead of anything I've seen on any iPhone, which are 2-4x faster.
      - cesarb 6y ago
        > > Many of these are only barely possible on "pre-neural" mobile ARM CPUs > Speech recognition on my old Pixel 2 I don't think the Pixel 2 can be called "pre-neural". "[...] The PVC is a fully programmable image, vision and AI multi-core domain-specific architecture (DSA) for mobile devices and in future for IoT.[2] It first appeared in the Google Pixel 2 and 2 XL [...]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel_Visual_Core https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel_Visual_Core
      - nmfisher 6y ago
        Google's speech recognition is damn impressive, but I'm talking performance/power consumption, not "quality". Sticking a 2080 into an iPhone won't give you better speech recognition results, but it will give you bad results faster.

AsyncAwait 6y ago

I do hope AMD does well here as Apple's chips with all their custom silicon, T3 etc, mean the death of booting anything but apple signed OS images on that, forget Linux. And that's not the future I am willing to buy into.

thetinguy 6y ago
The presentations today specifically mentioned booting other operating systems.
- AsyncAwait 6y ago
  No it didn't. It mentioned running Linux in a VM, which isn't the same thing.
  - eecc 6y ago
    Do you complain if you’re running your OS on a CPU micro architetture VM abstraction?
    - nieve 6y ago
      I'm somewhat confused by this rhetorical question since the microcode of processor is vastly different than the userspace & kernel of Mac OS. Running an OS bare metal versus in a VM on top of Mac OS are different across a wide array of things. At a minimum performance is lower and less predictable on the VM; you now have two different OS's updates to worry about breakage with on top of their mutual interface (ask anyone who's done serious Linux dev work on a Mac); you have two different sets of security policies to worry about; the low level tools to debug performance in a VM don't have the level of access they do on bare metal; and if you're working with hardware for linux servers & devices in a VM you are going to have to go bare metall sooner or later. The abstractions are leaky, the VM is not a pristine environment floating on top of some vaguely well-defined architecture. The software in one has two extra layers (VM software & OS) between it and the actual platform and all this is before you start hitting weird corner cases with cpu architecture differences in the layers.

kwanbix 6y ago

> 1. If done correctly, non-Apple laptops may become significantly less attractive. Just like Android phones. What are you talking about? Android has about 72% of worldwide market share, so clearly Android phones are not significantly less attractive. And I am not an Android fanboy, my first two phones were iPhone 1 and iPhone 3GS, and I still consider them very good phones.

ponker 6y ago
Market share and attractiveness aren’t necessarily related. A Kia isn’t as attractive to its target customer as a Mercedes but outsells it because of price.
- eertami 6y ago
  Speak for yourself. If I'm going to buy a boring car, I certainly would take a Kia over a Mercedes, even if both were free.
- TLightful 6y ago
  Mercedes are completely outdated. Nice leather, that's it.
  - asguy 6y ago
    Mercedes would like to have a word with you.[0] [0] - Mercedes to debut Formula 1 MGU-H technology in AMG road cars - https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.mercedes-to-debut-formula-1-mgu-h-technology-in-amg-road-cars.6ha9y57tg2aY33xZsWQjwH.html https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.mercedes-to-debut...
    - lowdose 6y ago
      A hack on the turbo of an ICE car sounds pretty out dated to me.
      - asguy 6y ago