6 ms·

Taking a step back from her story, I find it so weird that we stigmatise some of the most universal human experiences. Essentially every person will piss burp

by yomly 6y ago

Taking a step back from her story, I find it so weird that we stigmatise some of the most universal human experiences. Essentially every person will piss burp fart and poop. And almost every person has one of two genitals. (EDIT and our biological parents will have one of each). And almost every mother will feed their baby with their breasts. And yet we have become so detached from the animal part of our identity and so caught up in some abstract values that we get squeamish seeing and talking about these things. We have much to learn on this front from our scandi and dutch friends who have chilled the F out.

jacquesm 6y ago
This is much more of a thing in the United States than elsewhere in the world.
- jwr 6y ago
  Definitely. In most of Europe things are more normal: it's normal for women to be prime ministers or presidents, it's OK to breastfeed your child in public, and at least among my programmer peers, women are regarded with more respect than men (since there are so few of them in IT). In Poland, the catholic church and the "conservatives" still work hard at enforcing the old barbaric gender stereotypes, but they get little traction among the educated population.
  - WesolyKubeczek 6y ago
    In Poland sexism in IT is still strong among some academic types. Not only sexism, but bags of other prejudices as well. I’d call it the „frustrated elitism syndrome”.
    - jwr 6y ago
      Really? I have no experience with academia, but in commercial settings I don't see any of it.
  - skocznymroczny 6y ago
    I don't really understand why the need to single out Poland. In recent history Poland had a transgender MP, openly gay MP and three female prime ministers. Breastfeeding in public isn't a taboo in Poland either.
    - jwr 6y ago
      Oh, that's just because I happen to live in Poland (most of the time) and I'm very annoyed by these attempts to "put women in their place" (usually, the kitchen, and with child-bearing duties). What I meant is that things are good, but the church and conservatives are hard at work, trying to make them worse.
      - jacquesm 6y ago
        It is a generational issue. The older generation - which also is the one that is most easily influenced by the church due to pearly-gate anxiety syndrome - is quite scared of further modernization and obviously the church is scared shitless of losing its power base. This sort of thing changes one funeral at the time. Fortunately younger people in Poland tend to be considerably smarter about such things than their parents ever were, though there are of course also still people in that generation that are dominated by the church.
- lookupthere 6y ago
  Definitely. Most of Sub-Saharan Africa as well doesn't have an issue with breastfeeding at all. The strange thing for me in the US is that the left doesn't seem bothered by it. They are usually all up to point out arbitrary social constructs but this isn't an issue for them? Am I missing something?
  - dsr_ 6y ago
    Breastfeeding has two major single-issue advocacy groups. The first is La Leche League, founded in Chicago in 1956. It has no particular political stance. The second is Breastfeeding USA, founded in 2010. It has a very slightly liberal stance. My mother was an LLL Leader for 35 years, and is a founding member of Breastfeeding USA.
davedx 6y ago
Yeah, the Netherlands is pretty good with the "animal side" of us as you put it (though it depends where you live too, in more religious areas clothing customs and attitudes towards sex etc. are quite different). Where I think NL still has some work to do is casual sexism/stereotyping. I'm sure it's better than many other places but there's still plenty of it around. We can all do better, and even where things seem good we need to always be vigilant.
jariel 6y ago
"I find it so weird that we stigmatise " Remember that this was a perception of stigmatisation, not necessarily an actual stigmatised response. Personally, I don't think people would bat an eye at a mother pumping milk in their car. Among all of my various acquaintances of every stripe, I can't imagine any of the caring, and I've never once in my life ever heard anyone say anything about it. Once, a mother was 'open breastfeeding' in the middle of a busy restaurant, I didn't say anything or think much about it, but I thought it was odd she was flouting her bare breast smack in the middle of a busy restaurant, I thought a hint of discretion, like a blanket, or being at the corner table facing a wall would be appropriate. I mean, we are 'eating'. I feel as though this woman was perhaps trying to 'make a point'. Not that I really care. But I just can't see how anyone would be upset or even noticing someone pumping breastmilk in their car or wherever as long as there's a shade of discretion. Even if someone might 'bat an eye' they still probably don't care. I don't doubt the authors personal feelings one bit, but that someone feels there is a stigma does not necessarily mean there is.
- cutemonster 6y ago
  > hint of discretion, like a blanket, or being at the corner table facing a wall Maybe this is a stupid question, but why is any hint of discretion needed at all? What is the problem with an uncovered breast and baby eating? Is it for example that you feel excited from seeing a breast, and don't like that happening in a restaurant? Or maybe it feels weird with people slightly undressed, in the same way as you might think it was weird if, say, a man (not woman) didn't wear a t-shirt at all? Or is it that you think it's somehow a tiny bit dirty with babies and them eating, maybe drooling or sth like that? Or sth else?
  - jariel 6y ago
    " but why is any hint of discretion needed at all?" Do you really need to ask though? When there's a topless woman in the middle of a restaurant, 99% of people are going to feel something is off. There's a not-so-subtle difference between 'breastfeeding' and 'I'm going to leave my boobs hanging out while I set my baby down and get something out of my bag' If you were in a restaurant, and someone was dangling their breasts for everyone to see (even a man for that matter) it would seem really odd. I've seen women breastfeeding in public (airplanes, cafes) countless times, and I don't think anyone ever batted an eye, but there was always a shade of discretion. A woman dangling her breasts around in restaurant, on the other hand, is a different thing entirely. It's kind of ridiculous that we have a social protocol wherein nudity would not be appropriate in a given context, but then because of some specific need, that this protocol goes away. No. Nobody minds at all that someone is breastfeeding but people do mind fairly obvious nudity. And I really don't think there's a soul in California who cares that a woman is breastfeeding or pumping milk in their car.

by yomly 6y ago

jacquesm 6y ago

This is much more of a thing in the United States than elsewhere in the world.

jwr 6y ago
Definitely. In most of Europe things are more normal: it's normal for women to be prime ministers or presidents, it's OK to breastfeed your child in public, and at least among my programmer peers, women are regarded with more respect than men (since there are so few of them in IT). In Poland, the catholic church and the "conservatives" still work hard at enforcing the old barbaric gender stereotypes, but they get little traction among the educated population.
- WesolyKubeczek 6y ago
  In Poland sexism in IT is still strong among some academic types. Not only sexism, but bags of other prejudices as well. I’d call it the „frustrated elitism syndrome”.
  - jwr 6y ago
    Really? I have no experience with academia, but in commercial settings I don't see any of it.
- skocznymroczny 6y ago
  I don't really understand why the need to single out Poland. In recent history Poland had a transgender MP, openly gay MP and three female prime ministers. Breastfeeding in public isn't a taboo in Poland either.
  - jwr 6y ago
    Oh, that's just because I happen to live in Poland (most of the time) and I'm very annoyed by these attempts to "put women in their place" (usually, the kitchen, and with child-bearing duties). What I meant is that things are good, but the church and conservatives are hard at work, trying to make them worse.
    - jacquesm 6y ago
      It is a generational issue. The older generation - which also is the one that is most easily influenced by the church due to pearly-gate anxiety syndrome - is quite scared of further modernization and obviously the church is scared shitless of losing its power base. This sort of thing changes one funeral at the time. Fortunately younger people in Poland tend to be considerably smarter about such things than their parents ever were, though there are of course also still people in that generation that are dominated by the church.
lookupthere 6y ago
Definitely. Most of Sub-Saharan Africa as well doesn't have an issue with breastfeeding at all. The strange thing for me in the US is that the left doesn't seem bothered by it. They are usually all up to point out arbitrary social constructs but this isn't an issue for them? Am I missing something?
- dsr_ 6y ago
  Breastfeeding has two major single-issue advocacy groups. The first is La Leche League, founded in Chicago in 1956. It has no particular political stance. The second is Breastfeeding USA, founded in 2010. It has a very slightly liberal stance. My mother was an LLL Leader for 35 years, and is a founding member of Breastfeeding USA.

davedx 6y ago

Yeah, the Netherlands is pretty good with the "animal side" of us as you put it (though it depends where you live too, in more religious areas clothing customs and attitudes towards sex etc. are quite different). Where I think NL still has some work to do is casual sexism/stereotyping. I'm sure it's better than many other places but there's still plenty of it around. We can all do better, and even where things seem good we need to always be vigilant.

jariel 6y ago

"I find it so weird that we stigmatise " Remember that this was a perception of stigmatisation, not necessarily an actual stigmatised response. Personally, I don't think people would bat an eye at a mother pumping milk in their car. Among all of my various acquaintances of every stripe, I can't imagine any of the caring, and I've never once in my life ever heard anyone say anything about it. Once, a mother was 'open breastfeeding' in the middle of a busy restaurant, I didn't say anything or think much about it, but I thought it was odd she was flouting her bare breast smack in the middle of a busy restaurant, I thought a hint of discretion, like a blanket, or being at the corner table facing a wall would be appropriate. I mean, we are 'eating'. I feel as though this woman was perhaps trying to 'make a point'. Not that I really care. But I just can't see how anyone would be upset or even noticing someone pumping breastmilk in their car or wherever as long as there's a shade of discretion. Even if someone might 'bat an eye' they still probably don't care. I don't doubt the authors personal feelings one bit, but that someone feels there is a stigma does not necessarily mean there is.

cutemonster 6y ago
> hint of discretion, like a blanket, or being at the corner table facing a wall Maybe this is a stupid question, but why is any hint of discretion needed at all? What is the problem with an uncovered breast and baby eating? Is it for example that you feel excited from seeing a breast, and don't like that happening in a restaurant? Or maybe it feels weird with people slightly undressed, in the same way as you might think it was weird if, say, a man (not woman) didn't wear a t-shirt at all? Or is it that you think it's somehow a tiny bit dirty with babies and them eating, maybe drooling or sth like that? Or sth else?
- jariel 6y ago
  " but why is any hint of discretion needed at all?" Do you really need to ask though? When there's a topless woman in the middle of a restaurant, 99% of people are going to feel something is off. There's a not-so-subtle difference between 'breastfeeding' and 'I'm going to leave my boobs hanging out while I set my baby down and get something out of my bag' If you were in a restaurant, and someone was dangling their breasts for everyone to see (even a man for that matter) it would seem really odd. I've seen women breastfeeding in public (airplanes, cafes) countless times, and I don't think anyone ever batted an eye, but there was always a shade of discretion. A woman dangling her breasts around in restaurant, on the other hand, is a different thing entirely. It's kind of ridiculous that we have a social protocol wherein nudity would not be appropriate in a given context, but then because of some specific need, that this protocol goes away. No. Nobody minds at all that someone is breastfeeding but people do mind fairly obvious nudity. And I really don't think there's a soul in California who cares that a woman is breastfeeding or pumping milk in their car.