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Two observations regarding the former title bar: * Putting the title (folder name) before the controls introduces a fundamental instability, much like OS X did

Two observations regarding the former title bar: * Putting the title (folder name) before the controls introduces a fundamental instability, much like OS X did with the menu bar by placing the named app menu before any other menus. Also, the amount of available space for displaying a longer title/file name seems limited. * It seems, the proxy icon is gone. I can't see which element could bear the functionality in place. The title is already editable, making it dragable as well might be too much. Is this the beginning of the end of the drag-and-drop paradigm? (Notably, it doesn't suit touch interfaces well. Many aspects of these changes seem to prepare "touchability".)

bobbylarrybobby 6y ago
Apple made a pretty big to-do about adding drag and drop to iPadOS. I don’t see drag and drop going anywhere.
SllX 6y ago
The proxy icon is still there, it seems you have to hover or click to show it though.
- masswerk 6y ago
  So discoverability is finally replaced by the "Ahhh" paradigm?
  - SllX 6y ago
    That's been the trend for a while, but in the case of the proxy icon, the types of interactions you could perform with it were mostly undiscoverable and unknown to a lot of users. You had to actively explore the way the UI worked to figure it out, but I can't say I'm a fan of the change either.
    - chipotle_coyote 6y ago
      > in the case of the proxy icon, the types of interactions you could perform with it were mostly undiscoverable and unknown to a lot of users. That's a good point I hadn't thought of -- I love the proxy icon. I'm glad it's still there, but this kind of feels like Apple is implicitly saying, "Look, for the ten of you who knew what this was, you still do it, but we're just hiding it from everyone else, sorry."
      - SllX 6y ago
        It’s easy to take every UI change as an affront, particularly when somebody changes something we liked. Just from what I’ve seen though, it appears the goal is a simply a more space efficient UI. It’s not a bad goal, even though I still want to beat them over the head with the Dock which functioned better under NeXTSTEP than it ever did under Mac OS X, and the stoplight isn’t doing anyone any favors over the Mac OS 9 window controls. I guess I shouldn’t be fighting the wars of 20 years ago though. It is what it is, and since the goal seems to be to rebuild everything in SwiftUI eventually, maybe the Dock will finally be reconsidered in the next few versions when they get around to it.
        masswerk 6y ago
        The problem is, it seems to be not so much about space efficiency, but about streamlined appearance (e.g., there's now less horizontal space and fewer controls are shown at once), which translates to low semantic contrast, wich again translates to lower work efficiency. And it's the latter, which causes most of the criticism, as not all users want to trade personal time and usability for looks (or prettier printouts of the UI).
        SllX 6y ago
        I'm not going to defend Apple's work on this front, it's just they decided to consolidate the title bar and toolbar to free up some vertical screen real estate pressure and they're leaning hard on these slide animations to hide some of the UI elements so as to not overload the toolbar/titlebar thing. That to me looks like a botched attempt to make it more space efficient, although I do at least like the bit with the search bar. John Siracusa has a different theory though, and having had time to go through and examine to changes in the HIG in more detail, I'm inclined to agree. The spacing and layout and sizing appears to make Mac OS XI more "touchable", i.e. we should expect Macs with touch screens at some point.
  - the_other 6y ago
    But most macOS users don't know about the proxy icon either. It was never "discoverable", in the way you suggest, to begin with. The Mac has had "ahhh" paradigm features for YEARS. You could even say that the "wow" of the genie effect and the "ooh" of Aqua were cousins to the "ahhh" paradigm. I love the proxy icon, too, by the way. But it's always been a badly documented, surprising, quirky feature. I found it by accident, by slipping and dragging a folder onto the menubar. That's not even useful; I didn't understand what I'd done. Eventually, after reading blogs and manuals, I use the proxy icon (and the brilliant Finder<->save dialog tricks) all the time. I don't think we gain much by framing the argument around "discoverability" any more. I think it's much more useful to talk in terms of the overall interface paradigm. The proxy icon kind fitted into the "desktop" paradigm - i.e. a scatter of media and tools strewn across a desk. But Apple are moving away from that, and into a new paradigm of "surfaces for interaction". The i-devices have been in that space for years. The "mac" devices are now going there. Both are gonna change again, bit by bit, in the future as humans develop new ways to interact with this weird networked functional data thing they've created, and Apple try to provide novel tooling for novel technology. They do seem to be going faster, and breaking more things, than they did in the 80s and early 90s when they lead the desktop paradigm. They're possibly experimenting with ideas on the wider user base, rather than doing closed door research. A big part of that is due to the wider user base being MUCH more comfortable with computing than before. People with very little "computing" training are contributing daily to the development of digital culture.
whywhywhywhy 6y ago
The Proxy icon is a seriously underrated feature on OS X. Wish every other OS would replicate it already.
bouke 6y ago
It was featured in some article on HN before that we used to have "safe areas". Areas where you could grab a window and drag it around, without having to carefully place the cursor or accidentally pressing a button. This is not new in Big Sur, but has been happening for some releases now. Take the Notes.app, it doesn't even have a title bar, just a tool bar. When resizing it to (what I think is) a comfortable size, the toolbar buttons are side-to-side leaving just a few pixels of margin by which you can drag the window. I'm not a fan of this trend, but it seems the way forward for all macOS apps. With this release it is brought to most first-party apps.

bobbylarrybobby 6y ago

Apple made a pretty big to-do about adding drag and drop to iPadOS. I don’t see drag and drop going anywhere.

SllX 6y ago

The proxy icon is still there, it seems you have to hover or click to show it though.

masswerk 6y ago
So discoverability is finally replaced by the "Ahhh" paradigm?
- SllX 6y ago
  That's been the trend for a while, but in the case of the proxy icon, the types of interactions you could perform with it were mostly undiscoverable and unknown to a lot of users. You had to actively explore the way the UI worked to figure it out, but I can't say I'm a fan of the change either.
  - chipotle_coyote 6y ago
    > in the case of the proxy icon, the types of interactions you could perform with it were mostly undiscoverable and unknown to a lot of users. That's a good point I hadn't thought of -- I love the proxy icon. I'm glad it's still there, but this kind of feels like Apple is implicitly saying, "Look, for the ten of you who knew what this was, you still do it, but we're just hiding it from everyone else, sorry."
    - SllX 6y ago
      It’s easy to take every UI change as an affront, particularly when somebody changes something we liked. Just from what I’ve seen though, it appears the goal is a simply a more space efficient UI. It’s not a bad goal, even though I still want to beat them over the head with the Dock which functioned better under NeXTSTEP than it ever did under Mac OS X, and the stoplight isn’t doing anyone any favors over the Mac OS 9 window controls. I guess I shouldn’t be fighting the wars of 20 years ago though. It is what it is, and since the goal seems to be to rebuild everything in SwiftUI eventually, maybe the Dock will finally be reconsidered in the next few versions when they get around to it.
      - masswerk 6y ago
        The problem is, it seems to be not so much about space efficiency, but about streamlined appearance (e.g., there's now less horizontal space and fewer controls are shown at once), which translates to low semantic contrast, wich again translates to lower work efficiency. And it's the latter, which causes most of the criticism, as not all users want to trade personal time and usability for looks (or prettier printouts of the UI).
        SllX 6y ago
        I'm not going to defend Apple's work on this front, it's just they decided to consolidate the title bar and toolbar to free up some vertical screen real estate pressure and they're leaning hard on these slide animations to hide some of the UI elements so as to not overload the toolbar/titlebar thing. That to me looks like a botched attempt to make it more space efficient, although I do at least like the bit with the search bar. John Siracusa has a different theory though, and having had time to go through and examine to changes in the HIG in more detail, I'm inclined to agree. The spacing and layout and sizing appears to make Mac OS XI more "touchable", i.e. we should expect Macs with touch screens at some point.
- the_other 6y ago
  But most macOS users don't know about the proxy icon either. It was never "discoverable", in the way you suggest, to begin with. The Mac has had "ahhh" paradigm features for YEARS. You could even say that the "wow" of the genie effect and the "ooh" of Aqua were cousins to the "ahhh" paradigm. I love the proxy icon, too, by the way. But it's always been a badly documented, surprising, quirky feature. I found it by accident, by slipping and dragging a folder onto the menubar. That's not even useful; I didn't understand what I'd done. Eventually, after reading blogs and manuals, I use the proxy icon (and the brilliant Finder<->save dialog tricks) all the time. I don't think we gain much by framing the argument around "discoverability" any more. I think it's much more useful to talk in terms of the overall interface paradigm. The proxy icon kind fitted into the "desktop" paradigm - i.e. a scatter of media and tools strewn across a desk. But Apple are moving away from that, and into a new paradigm of "surfaces for interaction". The i-devices have been in that space for years. The "mac" devices are now going there. Both are gonna change again, bit by bit, in the future as humans develop new ways to interact with this weird networked functional data thing they've created, and Apple try to provide novel tooling for novel technology. They do seem to be going faster, and breaking more things, than they did in the 80s and early 90s when they lead the desktop paradigm. They're possibly experimenting with ideas on the wider user base, rather than doing closed door research. A big part of that is due to the wider user base being MUCH more comfortable with computing than before. People with very little "computing" training are contributing daily to the development of digital culture.

whywhywhywhy 6y ago

The Proxy icon is a seriously underrated feature on OS X. Wish every other OS would replicate it already.

bouke 6y ago

It was featured in some article on HN before that we used to have "safe areas". Areas where you could grab a window and drag it around, without having to carefully place the cursor or accidentally pressing a button. This is not new in Big Sur, but has been happening for some releases now. Take the Notes.app, it doesn't even have a title bar, just a tool bar. When resizing it to (what I think is) a comfortable size, the toolbar buttons are side-to-side leaving just a few pixels of margin by which you can drag the window. I'm not a fan of this trend, but it seems the way forward for all macOS apps. With this release it is brought to most first-party apps.