4 ms·

The US actually spends a low amount of money on policing compared to the EU, where police kill fewer people. Further, the US also has a low number of police off

by graeme 6y ago

The US actually spends a low amount of money on policing compared to the EU, where police kill fewer people. Further, the US also has a low number of police officers. https://blog.skepticallibertarian.com/2019/01/09/charts-police-vs-prisons-in-the-us-and-europe/ https://blog.skepticallibertarian.com/2019/01/09/charts-poli...? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_number_of_police_officers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependen... The defund the police narrative isn’t based on any actual examination of US police spending, or general public spending. The key issues are instead police unions, lack of police training in the US, impunity for police abuses, etc Cambridge NJ is often cited as a model of reform. But I am not sure they reduced spending. Instead they disbanded and reformed their police.

logjammin 6y ago
I think you mean Camden, NJ.
- graeme 6y ago
  You’re right, thanks!
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
munk-a 6y ago
> The key issues are instead police unions, lack of police training in the US, impunity for police abuses, etc Police unions, poor training and qualified immunity are really serious issues - but ones that are intractable to fight for on the national stage due to political gridlock. Just breaking up the unions as they stand right now and enforcing transparent employment history for law enforcement would make worlds of difference, but the action can't be taken unilaterally by a particular district - that district can ensure that incident reports are preserved but officers moving into the district may have had their employment history purged. Defunding the police is an actual policy decision that can be made on a local scale to address issues of over policing and start reinvesting in crime prevention rather than punishment.
- graeme 6y ago
  > Defunding the police is an actual policy decision that can be made on a local scale to address issues of over policing and start reinvesting in crime prevention rather than punishment. Can you give an example of a country that does what you recommend? If you can’t, what evidence do you have that it is the solution? I’m not American. My criticism above is that the movement appears to have developed a policy idea that is not used in any country with a successful policing track record. As for your claim that individual districts can’t take action....why? Cambden did. They’re hardly perfect, but it’s an improvement. They’re a local area. And this story shows that when they did try cutting funding, before the reforms and it didn’t solve the problem. Only a concerted reform effort did. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-jersey-city-disbanded-its-police-force-here-s-what-n1231677 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-jersey-city-disband... Comment above was heavily downvoted, but no one has provided a meaningful reply to the stats. The numbers are clear. Compared to places with better policing, the US has a smaller number of officers per capita, and spends less. The US does spend much more on prisons however, which is surely a mistake. To your point on shifting focus away from punishment this is one of the first places I would look to cut money: prisons. In the UK, police killed only 3 people in 2019. There has been surprisingly little inquiry as to how they do it. I get that US police are bad, and so spending less money to get less of them might be an improvement. But to actually solve the problem it seems that changing the police is the better answer. And this will necessarily be local because most of the important stuff in the US is local.
  - redis_mlc 6y ago
    > I’m not American. Well then. - US police are above the law, and have free union-provided legal counsel. If a city prosecutes an officer, he will sue them right back, and the union will threaten the careers of city councilpersons, DAs and judges at the next election. A perfect circle of corruption. - DA's and judges are elected, so political from Day One of their careers. Public unions hold 20% or more of the votes and vote in a bloc. Either play with the unions, or finish second. - the US is the most successful multicultural large country in history, but that makes things more complicated. - everybody who wants a handgun has one, or two. A lot of people driving around illegally have a loaded gun under their seat.

by graeme 6y ago

logjammin 6y ago

I think you mean Camden, NJ.

graeme 6y ago
You’re right, thanks!

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

munk-a 6y ago

> The key issues are instead police unions, lack of police training in the US, impunity for police abuses, etc Police unions, poor training and qualified immunity are really serious issues - but ones that are intractable to fight for on the national stage due to political gridlock. Just breaking up the unions as they stand right now and enforcing transparent employment history for law enforcement would make worlds of difference, but the action can't be taken unilaterally by a particular district - that district can ensure that incident reports are preserved but officers moving into the district may have had their employment history purged. Defunding the police is an actual policy decision that can be made on a local scale to address issues of over policing and start reinvesting in crime prevention rather than punishment.

graeme 6y ago
> Defunding the police is an actual policy decision that can be made on a local scale to address issues of over policing and start reinvesting in crime prevention rather than punishment. Can you give an example of a country that does what you recommend? If you can’t, what evidence do you have that it is the solution? I’m not American. My criticism above is that the movement appears to have developed a policy idea that is not used in any country with a successful policing track record. As for your claim that individual districts can’t take action....why? Cambden did. They’re hardly perfect, but it’s an improvement. They’re a local area. And this story shows that when they did try cutting funding, before the reforms and it didn’t solve the problem. Only a concerted reform effort did. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-jersey-city-disbanded-its-police-force-here-s-what-n1231677 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-jersey-city-disband... Comment above was heavily downvoted, but no one has provided a meaningful reply to the stats. The numbers are clear. Compared to places with better policing, the US has a smaller number of officers per capita, and spends less. The US does spend much more on prisons however, which is surely a mistake. To your point on shifting focus away from punishment this is one of the first places I would look to cut money: prisons. In the UK, police killed only 3 people in 2019. There has been surprisingly little inquiry as to how they do it. I get that US police are bad, and so spending less money to get less of them might be an improvement. But to actually solve the problem it seems that changing the police is the better answer. And this will necessarily be local because most of the important stuff in the US is local.
- redis_mlc 6y ago
  > I’m not American. Well then. - US police are above the law, and have free union-provided legal counsel. If a city prosecutes an officer, he will sue them right back, and the union will threaten the careers of city councilpersons, DAs and judges at the next election. A perfect circle of corruption. - DA's and judges are elected, so political from Day One of their careers. Public unions hold 20% or more of the votes and vote in a bloc. Either play with the unions, or finish second. - the US is the most successful multicultural large country in history, but that makes things more complicated. - everybody who wants a handgun has one, or two. A lot of people driving around illegally have a loaded gun under their seat.