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apple sells users to apps and gets 30% cut.

DevKoala 6y ago
Can you provide a link? Is this the cut they take for their App Store? If so, that isn't even in the same scale of selling your browsing history. For example, if I knew your cookie, and had access to the Google Ad Exchange, I could get your full browsing history as seen by Google trackers. The third parties know how to tie your cookie to your other information through identity graphs.
- shawnz 6y ago
  And what if you had access to the iCloud servers, where Safari history is stored without end-to-end encryption (unlike Chrome sync which is encrypted end-to-end)?
  - DevKoala 6y ago
    I and any other third party can buy their way into the google Ad Exchange, but nobody can buy their way into iCloud's servers; for example, China had to ask Apple to create a segregated iCloud to support iOS in China. It is possible that the US government has some snooping contract with iCloud, but they are definitely not the party I am trying to protect myself from. I am trying to protect myself from businesses using my data to influence my politics, lifestyle and purchases. Look into the business of companies like Liveramp, to see the kind of data exchanges that Google helps proliferate.
    - shawnz 6y ago
      Do you have a source that third-parties are able to see that data in Ad Exchange?
      - DevKoala 6y ago
        Read into the RTB protocol. With every Google pixel, all of the information obtained by the HTTP request + publisher appended data is passed to Google and auction to advertisers. https://www.iab.com/guidelines/real-time-bidding-rtb-project/ https://www.iab.com/guidelines/real-time-bidding-rtb-project... Full disclosure: I work for one of these third parties. Safari/Firefox are the hardest browsers to track. Google extended the deadline for killing cookies which probably netted us another year worth of easy revenue before we have to start start relying on first party tracking.
        shawnz 6y ago
        Of course they send that information... it is just the information that the advertiser would get anyway when you see their ad. Do they send the tracking cookie though, even before you buy?
        DevKoala 6y ago
        The RTB protocol describes the message that goes along with each bid request. So that is the information that all third parties participating in the auction receive as long as they are listening. To participate in the auction you don't need to win or even bid; you pay an upfront cost for listening, buy a seat in the ad exchange. The whole thing is dressed as an ad-exchange, but it really is a data exchange. If you win the auction you get to serve your own pixel to tag the user, corroborate the data from the auction, etc. There is a lot of value in winning and ad impression beyond the ad impression itself, but just by listening you can build advanced models of people's browsing patterns, and if you want tie the data with the information from another identity graph, you only need to win one identifier once and serve both pixels, your party's and the third party (cross cookie syncing). This third party identity sync historically happens at the client level, the browser in this case. However, in the future it will happen at the backend level, first party. PS: Google is not the only exchange btw. There is APPNEXUS, Rubicon, PubMatic, etc.
        shawnz 6y ago
        > If you win the auction you get to serve your own pixel to tag the user, corroborate the data from the auction, etc. That's not a scenario specific to real time bidding though. You could also just buy a regular ad and do that. > if you want tie the data with the information from another identity graph, you only need to win one identifier once and serve both pixels, your party's and the third party (cross cookie syncing). How can you associate the data from bids you didn't win to the data you get from ads that you did win and serve? Even with cookie syncing that doesn't necessarily reveal when a past/future bid opportunity matches a user you already know (unless you bid on it and win)
    - diminish 6y ago
      apple's business model is selling its users as hostages to app developers. - it's bad for app developers with 30% cut - and bad for users as every app becomes +30% more expensive (like Hey app) - good for apple. in apple app ecosystem you're the product as the user.
      - minhazm 6y ago
        This is exactly the same for Android though. Both Google Play and Apple App store charge 30%. And they both also drop the 30% to 15% for subscriptions after 1 yr. It's estimated Apple did about $50 billion in App Store revenue in 2019, and $30 billion for Google Play store. Now consider that about 80% of Apple's revenue actually comes from hardware, not software or people's data. But 70% of Google's revenue comes from ads. It's insane to me that you think that in Apple's ecosystem you're the product. The product in Apple's ecosystem is their hardware and they charge for access to users. Google does exactly the same thing, except without the regard for your privacy. Google's entire business model is selling access to its users.

Can you provide a link? Is this the cut they take for their App Store? If so, that isn't even in the same scale of selling your browsing history. For example, if I knew your cookie, and had access to the Google Ad Exchange, I could get your full browsing history as seen by Google trackers. The third parties know how to tie your cookie to your other information through identity graphs.

shawnz 6y ago
And what if you had access to the iCloud servers, where Safari history is stored without end-to-end encryption (unlike Chrome sync which is encrypted end-to-end)?
- DevKoala 6y ago
  I and any other third party can buy their way into the google Ad Exchange, but nobody can buy their way into iCloud's servers; for example, China had to ask Apple to create a segregated iCloud to support iOS in China. It is possible that the US government has some snooping contract with iCloud, but they are definitely not the party I am trying to protect myself from. I am trying to protect myself from businesses using my data to influence my politics, lifestyle and purchases. Look into the business of companies like Liveramp, to see the kind of data exchanges that Google helps proliferate.
  - shawnz 6y ago
    Do you have a source that third-parties are able to see that data in Ad Exchange?
    - DevKoala 6y ago
      Read into the RTB protocol. With every Google pixel, all of the information obtained by the HTTP request + publisher appended data is passed to Google and auction to advertisers. https://www.iab.com/guidelines/real-time-bidding-rtb-project/ https://www.iab.com/guidelines/real-time-bidding-rtb-project... Full disclosure: I work for one of these third parties. Safari/Firefox are the hardest browsers to track. Google extended the deadline for killing cookies which probably netted us another year worth of easy revenue before we have to start start relying on first party tracking.
      - shawnz 6y ago
        Of course they send that information... it is just the information that the advertiser would get anyway when you see their ad. Do they send the tracking cookie though, even before you buy?
        DevKoala 6y ago
        The RTB protocol describes the message that goes along with each bid request. So that is the information that all third parties participating in the auction receive as long as they are listening. To participate in the auction you don't need to win or even bid; you pay an upfront cost for listening, buy a seat in the ad exchange. The whole thing is dressed as an ad-exchange, but it really is a data exchange. If you win the auction you get to serve your own pixel to tag the user, corroborate the data from the auction, etc. There is a lot of value in winning and ad impression beyond the ad impression itself, but just by listening you can build advanced models of people's browsing patterns, and if you want tie the data with the information from another identity graph, you only need to win one identifier once and serve both pixels, your party's and the third party (cross cookie syncing). This third party identity sync historically happens at the client level, the browser in this case. However, in the future it will happen at the backend level, first party. PS: Google is not the only exchange btw. There is APPNEXUS, Rubicon, PubMatic, etc.
        shawnz 6y ago
        > If you win the auction you get to serve your own pixel to tag the user, corroborate the data from the auction, etc. That's not a scenario specific to real time bidding though. You could also just buy a regular ad and do that. > if you want tie the data with the information from another identity graph, you only need to win one identifier once and serve both pixels, your party's and the third party (cross cookie syncing). How can you associate the data from bids you didn't win to the data you get from ads that you did win and serve? Even with cookie syncing that doesn't necessarily reveal when a past/future bid opportunity matches a user you already know (unless you bid on it and win)
  - diminish 6y ago
    apple's business model is selling its users as hostages to app developers. - it's bad for app developers with 30% cut - and bad for users as every app becomes +30% more expensive (like Hey app) - good for apple. in apple app ecosystem you're the product as the user.
    - minhazm 6y ago
      This is exactly the same for Android though. Both Google Play and Apple App store charge 30%. And they both also drop the 30% to 15% for subscriptions after 1 yr. It's estimated Apple did about $50 billion in App Store revenue in 2019, and $30 billion for Google Play store. Now consider that about 80% of Apple's revenue actually comes from hardware, not software or people's data. But 70% of Google's revenue comes from ads. It's insane to me that you think that in Apple's ecosystem you're the product. The product in Apple's ecosystem is their hardware and they charge for access to users. Google does exactly the same thing, except without the regard for your privacy. Google's entire business model is selling access to its users.