4 ms·

The US has done just fine by itself by welcoming immigrants. How many Fortune 500 companies were founded by them or their children? You can't know ahead of tim

by davidw 6y ago

The US has done just fine by itself by welcoming immigrants. How many Fortune 500 companies were founded by them or their children? You can't know ahead of time which ones will go on to be successful, or maybe have a kid who is. The solution to people in the US going through tough times is to help them directly, not encourage companies to open offices in Canada and the EU.

linksnapzz 6y ago
By that logic, it is imperative to bring in all seven billion humans not currently inside the US. We don't know which of those seven billion might suddenly start a Fortune 500 company ex nihilo where we can't take advantage of it. I volunteer your neighborhood to host the first 500,000; do you have a pull-out bed or a few spare cots we can use?
- esoterica 6y ago
  You know immigrants pay rent and buy houses just like everyone else right? The government doesn't force people to host them in their bedrooms.
  - linksnapzz 6y ago
    A substantial % of the maximum number of immigrants ppl. want to let in can't afford the median rent in my area, unless they are staying at 2-3x the occupancy of a listed apartment. Landlords will undoubtedly turn a blind eye to this, as the rent money is in their hands today, and the cost of schools, utilities, social services etc. not met by the increasing population is a bill due in the abstract future. As for the ones who can afford their own houses, I think the market for real estate has increased here at at least 3x the rate of inflation over the past twenty years, we certainly don't need more buyers.
    - esoterica 6y ago
      > A substantial % of the maximum number of immigrants ppl. want to let in can't afford the median rent in my area, unless they are staying at 2-3x the occupancy of a listed apartment. The legal minimum H-1B salary is substantially higher than the median American salary, and of course, the average salary is in turn higher than the legal minimum. They are better equipped to afford the median rent than the average resident of your area. > the cost of schools, utilities, social services etc Are you under the impression that immigrants don't pay taxes or something? Skilled immigrants are higher income than average and pay far, far more into the system than they take out of it.
      - linksnapzz 6y ago
        davidw didn't say H1-Bs. He said "immigrants". But, since you bring it up... The legal minimum H1-B salary is based on 'prevailing wage' standards, of which there are many to choose from. Sufficiently so, such that one employer I know was hiring PhD statisticians with 20 years of experience in bioinformatics for 90K/yr. In downtown Cambridge, a block from MIT. Doesn't that sound like a princely salary for today's senior scientist with a family in Massachusetts to support? Maybe they'll throw in a gym membership at Planet Fitness. Are you under the impression that current rates of state & local taxation realistically reflect the actual cost of servicing future obligations for services and infrastructure, including pension costs? They don't pay that much more into the system....of course, if Trump set the minimum H1-B salary to 300K nationwide, and allowed for a marginal rate of 65%, that would be a different story.
        esoterica 6y ago
        > Are you under the impression that current rates of state & local taxation realistically reflect the actual cost of servicing future obligations for services and infrastructure, including pension costs? They don't pay that much more into the system....of course, if Trump set the minimum H1-B salary to 300K nationwide, and allowed for a marginal rate of 65%, that would be a different story. The median American worker makes something like 30k+/year. So yes, the person making $90k is paying far more into the system than they take out, even if you account for the fact that the current system is not quite fully funded. Skilled immigrants are also less likely to be on disability, be unemployed, end up in prison, etc, or otherwise end up in a position where they are extracting more resources than they put in.
randompwd 6y ago
> not encourage companies to open offices in Canada and the EU. Opening offices in Canada and EU directly correlates to the sales of their products and services in those markets. Not quite sure what your point is. Forcing companies to hire out of the _massive_ pool of US workers(~330 million) is good for the country, its people, just not so good for the profit margins of the companies hiring foreign labour to save money & labour rights strength. No skills in use that can't be learnt/trained.
- davidw 6y ago
  > Forcing companies to hire out of the _massive_ pool of workers is good for the country, its people, just not so good for the profit margins of the companies hiring foreign labour to save money & labour rights strength. Except that this is a myopic view of the economy as a zero-sum game that is not supported by actual... well, evidence. https://www.cato.org/blog/three-reasons-why-immigrants-arent-going-take-job https://www.cato.org/blog/three-reasons-why-immigrants-arent... The point about Canada and the EU is that companies can and will move operations to places with more liberal immigration systems. Taxes, innovation and many other benefits will accrue to those places, rather than the US.
- conanbatt 6y ago
  If a software engineer is hired by a US firm, or his products purchased by Americans, do you want that engineer to be in the US or outside the US?

by davidw 6y ago

linksnapzz 6y ago

By that logic, it is imperative to bring in all seven billion humans not currently inside the US. We don't know which of those seven billion might suddenly start a Fortune 500 company ex nihilo where we can't take advantage of it. I volunteer your neighborhood to host the first 500,000; do you have a pull-out bed or a few spare cots we can use?

esoterica 6y ago
You know immigrants pay rent and buy houses just like everyone else right? The government doesn't force people to host them in their bedrooms.
- linksnapzz 6y ago
  A substantial % of the maximum number of immigrants ppl. want to let in can't afford the median rent in my area, unless they are staying at 2-3x the occupancy of a listed apartment. Landlords will undoubtedly turn a blind eye to this, as the rent money is in their hands today, and the cost of schools, utilities, social services etc. not met by the increasing population is a bill due in the abstract future. As for the ones who can afford their own houses, I think the market for real estate has increased here at at least 3x the rate of inflation over the past twenty years, we certainly don't need more buyers.
  - esoterica 6y ago
    > A substantial % of the maximum number of immigrants ppl. want to let in can't afford the median rent in my area, unless they are staying at 2-3x the occupancy of a listed apartment. The legal minimum H-1B salary is substantially higher than the median American salary, and of course, the average salary is in turn higher than the legal minimum. They are better equipped to afford the median rent than the average resident of your area. > the cost of schools, utilities, social services etc Are you under the impression that immigrants don't pay taxes or something? Skilled immigrants are higher income than average and pay far, far more into the system than they take out of it.
    - linksnapzz 6y ago
      davidw didn't say H1-Bs. He said "immigrants". But, since you bring it up... The legal minimum H1-B salary is based on 'prevailing wage' standards, of which there are many to choose from. Sufficiently so, such that one employer I know was hiring PhD statisticians with 20 years of experience in bioinformatics for 90K/yr. In downtown Cambridge, a block from MIT. Doesn't that sound like a princely salary for today's senior scientist with a family in Massachusetts to support? Maybe they'll throw in a gym membership at Planet Fitness. Are you under the impression that current rates of state & local taxation realistically reflect the actual cost of servicing future obligations for services and infrastructure, including pension costs? They don't pay that much more into the system....of course, if Trump set the minimum H1-B salary to 300K nationwide, and allowed for a marginal rate of 65%, that would be a different story.
      - esoterica 6y ago
        > Are you under the impression that current rates of state & local taxation realistically reflect the actual cost of servicing future obligations for services and infrastructure, including pension costs? They don't pay that much more into the system....of course, if Trump set the minimum H1-B salary to 300K nationwide, and allowed for a marginal rate of 65%, that would be a different story. The median American worker makes something like 30k+/year. So yes, the person making $90k is paying far more into the system than they take out, even if you account for the fact that the current system is not quite fully funded. Skilled immigrants are also less likely to be on disability, be unemployed, end up in prison, etc, or otherwise end up in a position where they are extracting more resources than they put in.

randompwd 6y ago

> not encourage companies to open offices in Canada and the EU. Opening offices in Canada and EU directly correlates to the sales of their products and services in those markets. Not quite sure what your point is. Forcing companies to hire out of the _massive_ pool of US workers(~330 million) is good for the country, its people, just not so good for the profit margins of the companies hiring foreign labour to save money & labour rights strength. No skills in use that can't be learnt/trained.

davidw 6y ago
> Forcing companies to hire out of the _massive_ pool of workers is good for the country, its people, just not so good for the profit margins of the companies hiring foreign labour to save money & labour rights strength. Except that this is a myopic view of the economy as a zero-sum game that is not supported by actual... well, evidence. https://www.cato.org/blog/three-reasons-why-immigrants-arent-going-take-job https://www.cato.org/blog/three-reasons-why-immigrants-arent... The point about Canada and the EU is that companies can and will move operations to places with more liberal immigration systems. Taxes, innovation and many other benefits will accrue to those places, rather than the US.
conanbatt 6y ago
If a software engineer is hired by a US firm, or his products purchased by Americans, do you want that engineer to be in the US or outside the US?