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No way. This is literally exactly what Microsoft just did, and here we have the results. Facebook can try it, and they'll fail too. There is absolutely _zero_

No way. This is literally exactly what Microsoft just did, and here we have the results. Facebook can try it, and they'll fail too. There is absolutely _zero_ chance of younger demographics moving to facebook. I'm in my 20s and know many gamers in their 20s/teens and we all avoid facebook like the plague. There's no chance. We've seen it again and again and again-- you can't just steal away a successful business by throwing money at the problem and copying it. Look at zune, look at tidal, look at google+, look at bing, look at mixer. All either outright failed or stole at best a tiny fraction of market share. There's so many examples of corporations trying and failing at this strategy that it's just a comic act by now.

wayneftw 6y ago
A Facebook property like Instagram might do well. I think more than half of the streamers that I watch have an Instagram link in their Twitch profile. Personally I hope for a good decentralized (actually decentralized, not d.live) streaming network to take off.
- gmueckl 6y ago
  A decentralized streaming network is technically infeasible with the current Internet. Keep in mind that every watcher adds upload bandwidth requirements to a node somewhere else in the network. Consumer network connections are too asymmetric for that.
  - TremendousJudge 6y ago
    I have streamed live sports events using p2p for years and it works just fine.
    - corobo 6y ago
      Got a write up or demo? Pure curiosity of how it works
      - TremendousJudge 6y ago
        Nope, I have nothing. The most popular thing out there is Acestream, which is a weird Russian fork of VLC that is probably spyware but it "just works". It's closed source and I have never seen anything written as to how it works, sadly. My point was along the lines of, p2p streaming is feasible with current infrastructure because it already works under those less than ideal conditions
        corobo 6y ago
        No worries, I wasn't trying to call you out or anything it just sounded cool :)
  - Ericson2314 6y ago
    We needed to ban asymmetric internet connections and IPv4 only.
- jowsie 6y ago
  Almost every streamer will have twitter/instagram because it's near impossible to get sponsorships/brand deals without them.
scarface74 6y ago
I'm in my 20s and know many gamers in their 20s/teens and we all avoid facebook like the plague. There's no chance. You realize your anecdotal circle of friends is really not relevant in the grand scheme of things?
- aerovistae 6y ago
  For serious scientific studies, anecdotal data is not useful. For product fit, the experiences and feedback from your target audience are _extremely_ "relevant in the grand scheme of things." If your target audience is saying "I literally don't know anyone who would want to use this," yeah, that's relevant. Unless you're aiming to imply that me and my friend group and greater gaming community are the exception and in fact the majority of young people use facebook, in which case....lol. My "anecdotal experience" is interacting with dozens of gaming communities which mysteriously all link to subreddits and discords and twitches and never, ever a facebook group. That's not very anecdotal when these are communities of tens and hundreds of thousands of people.
  - thaumasiotes 6y ago
    > For serious scientific studies, anecdotal data is not useful. This is still wrong; anecdotal data is what motivates studies in the first place. What anecdotal data isn't is a conclusion.
    - aerovistae 6y ago
      Good point!
  - scarface74 6y ago
    Unless you're aiming to imply that me and my friend group and greater gaming community are the exception and in fact the majority of young people use facebook, in which case....lol. Have you done a statistically relevant survey of what the “majority of young people do”? As a reference, if you go to r/cscareerquestions you would swear that no other company exists for graduating software engineers but the big 5 tech companies and if you don’t spend every minute “learning LeetCode to work for a FAANG” your life is over and you might as well kill yourself.
bentcorner 6y ago
I agree. For me, the core problem with facebook gaming is that I'm not going to interact with a gaming stream while I'm logged into my facebook account. I use my FB account to connect with family, and it works great for that, and that's it. Using it for anything else just inevitably leads to messy information leakage.
traek 6y ago
> you can't just steal away a successful business by throwing money at the problem and copying it. Look at zune, look at tidal, look at google+, look at bing, look at mixer. Look at instagram stories?
- fastball 6y ago
  You can steal features. You can't steal an entire platform + userbase.
MisterBastahrd 6y ago
Sure. Look at Google (Yahoo, Altavista, Lycos), look at Messenger (AIM, ICQ), look at GMail (Hotmail, Yahoo Mail), look at Facebook (Myspace), etc... You absolutely CAN steal a userbase if the quality of your product is sufficiently better than the existing alternative. The problem with Mixer is that the only real advantage they had was latency, and that's not a big enough reason to draw people to the platform. Facebook's current problem is that they want to use their existing network and one of the primary features of a gaming platform is anonymity. 99% of the streamers on twitch can't be identified by anything but their usernames, and that's the way they like it. Facebook is antithetical to that experience.
- aerovistae 6y ago
  The examples you give are simply not comparable. In all three cases, this was not someone throwing a ton of money at something and copying it to try to steal it. Google was made by two grad students who came up with a better way of searching. They invented a superior product and it took off on its own merits. Gmail was largely created by one person helming the project on his own, and again it took off because it was VASTLY better than existing options. I was a Gmail beta user-- I remember! It wasn't even close. Facebook, again-- not a corporation throwing a ton of money at something. It took off on its own, exactly as depicted in The Social Network. It was made by a handful of college students and people simply loved using it in the beginning. Given your examples, you see to have misunderstood me as arguing that a successful product can never be replaced or lose its dominance. Of course I am not saying that, that would be crazy. I am saying a corporation or any other entity with a lot of money cannot replace a successful product using that money. They can only do it by actually coming up with a better solution to the problem, and that almost never happens-- they simply aren't able to do such a thing in most cases. Instead they deliver hollow, branded imitations like the many examples I named, and they fail.

wayneftw 6y ago

A Facebook property like Instagram might do well. I think more than half of the streamers that I watch have an Instagram link in their Twitch profile. Personally I hope for a good decentralized (actually decentralized, not d.live) streaming network to take off.

gmueckl 6y ago
A decentralized streaming network is technically infeasible with the current Internet. Keep in mind that every watcher adds upload bandwidth requirements to a node somewhere else in the network. Consumer network connections are too asymmetric for that.
- TremendousJudge 6y ago
  I have streamed live sports events using p2p for years and it works just fine.
  - corobo 6y ago
    Got a write up or demo? Pure curiosity of how it works
    - TremendousJudge 6y ago
      Nope, I have nothing. The most popular thing out there is Acestream, which is a weird Russian fork of VLC that is probably spyware but it "just works". It's closed source and I have never seen anything written as to how it works, sadly. My point was along the lines of, p2p streaming is feasible with current infrastructure because it already works under those less than ideal conditions
      - corobo 6y ago
        No worries, I wasn't trying to call you out or anything it just sounded cool :)
- Ericson2314 6y ago
  We needed to ban asymmetric internet connections and IPv4 only.
jowsie 6y ago
Almost every streamer will have twitter/instagram because it's near impossible to get sponsorships/brand deals without them.

scarface74 6y ago

I'm in my 20s and know many gamers in their 20s/teens and we all avoid facebook like the plague. There's no chance. You realize your anecdotal circle of friends is really not relevant in the grand scheme of things?

aerovistae 6y ago
For serious scientific studies, anecdotal data is not useful. For product fit, the experiences and feedback from your target audience are _extremely_ "relevant in the grand scheme of things." If your target audience is saying "I literally don't know anyone who would want to use this," yeah, that's relevant. Unless you're aiming to imply that me and my friend group and greater gaming community are the exception and in fact the majority of young people use facebook, in which case....lol. My "anecdotal experience" is interacting with dozens of gaming communities which mysteriously all link to subreddits and discords and twitches and never, ever a facebook group. That's not very anecdotal when these are communities of tens and hundreds of thousands of people.
- thaumasiotes 6y ago
  > For serious scientific studies, anecdotal data is not useful. This is still wrong; anecdotal data is what motivates studies in the first place. What anecdotal data isn't is a conclusion.
  - aerovistae 6y ago
    Good point!
- scarface74 6y ago
  Unless you're aiming to imply that me and my friend group and greater gaming community are the exception and in fact the majority of young people use facebook, in which case....lol. Have you done a statistically relevant survey of what the “majority of young people do”? As a reference, if you go to r/cscareerquestions you would swear that no other company exists for graduating software engineers but the big 5 tech companies and if you don’t spend every minute “learning LeetCode to work for a FAANG” your life is over and you might as well kill yourself.

bentcorner 6y ago

I agree. For me, the core problem with facebook gaming is that I'm not going to interact with a gaming stream while I'm logged into my facebook account. I use my FB account to connect with family, and it works great for that, and that's it. Using it for anything else just inevitably leads to messy information leakage.

traek 6y ago

> you can't just steal away a successful business by throwing money at the problem and copying it. Look at zune, look at tidal, look at google+, look at bing, look at mixer. Look at instagram stories?

fastball 6y ago
You can steal features. You can't steal an entire platform + userbase.

MisterBastahrd 6y ago

Sure. Look at Google (Yahoo, Altavista, Lycos), look at Messenger (AIM, ICQ), look at GMail (Hotmail, Yahoo Mail), look at Facebook (Myspace), etc... You absolutely CAN steal a userbase if the quality of your product is sufficiently better than the existing alternative. The problem with Mixer is that the only real advantage they had was latency, and that's not a big enough reason to draw people to the platform. Facebook's current problem is that they want to use their existing network and one of the primary features of a gaming platform is anonymity. 99% of the streamers on twitch can't be identified by anything but their usernames, and that's the way they like it. Facebook is antithetical to that experience.

aerovistae 6y ago
The examples you give are simply not comparable. In all three cases, this was not someone throwing a ton of money at something and copying it to try to steal it. Google was made by two grad students who came up with a better way of searching. They invented a superior product and it took off on its own merits. Gmail was largely created by one person helming the project on his own, and again it took off because it was VASTLY better than existing options. I was a Gmail beta user-- I remember! It wasn't even close. Facebook, again-- not a corporation throwing a ton of money at something. It took off on its own, exactly as depicted in The Social Network. It was made by a handful of college students and people simply loved using it in the beginning. Given your examples, you see to have misunderstood me as arguing that a successful product can never be replaced or lose its dominance. Of course I am not saying that, that would be crazy. I am saying a corporation or any other entity with a lot of money cannot replace a successful product using that money. They can only do it by actually coming up with a better solution to the problem, and that almost never happens-- they simply aren't able to do such a thing in most cases. Instead they deliver hollow, branded imitations like the many examples I named, and they fail.