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They will lock down their PCs like the iPhone. Good luck booting anything other than macos or getting you Mac fixed anywhere other than Apple. No thanks, switc

They will lock down their PCs like the iPhone. Good luck booting anything other than macos or getting you Mac fixed anywhere other than Apple. No thanks, switching back to Linux. I'm done with this crap.

criddell 6y ago
> They will lock down their PCs like the iPhone. Did they say that in the keynote?
- benologist 6y ago
  At 1:34:04 of the presentation Fedherighi is opening up Xcode on the ARM Mac, and says, "we're using Xcode, like all our developers will" which might be construed as app store only.
  - chipotle_coyote 6y ago
    Given that virtually everyone developing Swift or Objective-C applications for the Mac is using Xcode whether or not they're publishing to the App Store, that just seems to be a real leap to take, though.
    - benologist 6y ago
      It certainly might be nothing, but it's hard to imagine they would say "all of their developers" are using Xcode to describe the current and diverse IDE landscape. A lot of developers are currently using multi-platform game engines, open technologies like HTML, multi-platform frameworks etc.
      - chipotle_coyote 6y ago
        It really isn't, though. There's a lot of IDEs and text editors out there, sure (I seem to collect them, myself). But if you're specifically writing Mac apps in Objective-C or Swift, the entire development chain is tied to Xcode, and all the developers writing apps for Mac or iOS that I know of -- not "developers writing apps on the Mac," but the specific subset of people writing apps for the Mac or iOS devices -- are using Xcode. The only other IDE I know of that's remotely competitive on this front is JetBrain's AppCode, but it has a tiny market share in comparison, and people developing native Mac apps in other languages are an even smaller group. (Also, it's not really like Apple to acknowledge competition in this space, especially anyone using non-native toolkits. They're not going to mention people writing Electron apps in the WWDC keynote, right?)
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
- bootloop 6y ago
  It is true that the boot process on ARM is more entangled with the platform then on x86. In contrast to x86 where you have to do additional steps to lock it down on ARM additional work of the system integrator is required to keep it open/customizable. Not sure if we can expect Apple (or anyone else who is not interest in this business case) to invest into that (if they don't explicitly state that the will). Edit: This touches a lot of areas, like auto-detection and configuration of hardware and sub-components (either connected or embedded into the SoC) or security specific areas like ARM TrustZone which has vendor specific implementations and secure boot procedures
zelly 6y ago
Thank you Apple for bringing the Year of the Linux Desktop
- Ericson2314 6y ago
  I do hope this indirectly helps Pine64 somehow too.
- bdcravens 6y ago
  Perhaps for developers, but I think most others will move back to Windows.
outworlder 6y ago
> They will lock down their PCs like the iPhone. Maybe, maybe not. Where did you hear that?
- coolspot 6y ago
  That was long coming with the Mac App Store, signed apps, TPM, abandonment of OpenGL/OpenCL, etc.
cududa 6y ago
Uhhhh when have you been able to pop out a CPU in a laptop and replace it yourself? A decade, at least?
xenadu02 6y ago
The Mac is the Mac. Apple Silicon doesn’t change that. You can set boot args, disable security, and other things the Mac has historically supported. In fact these things are required to develop 3rd-party kernel extensions which are still supported on Apple Silicon.
- jasonhansel 6y ago
  But will Apple let you run iOS apps in an environment where you can break iOS security guarantees? I suspect that this is the beginning of the end for sideloaded apps.
  - xenadu02 6y ago
    I don't know how much clearer things can be. The Mac remains a Mac. It can run software from outside the App Store. That applies to Apple Silicon. This was specifically called out in the SOTU stream.
  - ArgyleSound 6y ago
    The Platform State of the Union presentation made a particularly big deal of “this is the Mac and the things you expect from the Mac will function as they always did”, and demonstrating things like showing the iOS app container file and moving it around.
eugeniub 6y ago
> They will lock down their PCs like the iPhone. I have heard this claim for 10 years now. Still hasn't come true.
- defnotashton2 6y ago
  It is increasingly hard to install apps outside the store, and the lack of granularity and control for things like sip imo doesn't bode well.
neop1x 6y ago
They are going to get the Apple ecosystem even more closed and make desktop consumer platform like iPhone. Steve Jobs' dream coming true. I have never seen Linux running great on a ARM consumer device (like android tablets, smartphones) except ChromeOS devices. The big issues being unavailable graphics and other drivers and lack of ACPI (devicetree has to be provided separately). Some attempts were able to get Linux on framebuffer with some X patches but system upgrades required special care and having just framebuffer is slow and useless. And that is what will be achievable at most. ARM means freedom for manufacturers, not for consumers/end users! I suspect Apple will also put there multiple proprietary accelerators and specialized chips to make things faster by offloading some work which won't be accessible from Linux, of course.

criddell 6y ago

> They will lock down their PCs like the iPhone. Did they say that in the keynote?

benologist 6y ago
At 1:34:04 of the presentation Fedherighi is opening up Xcode on the ARM Mac, and says, "we're using Xcode, like all our developers will" which might be construed as app store only.
- chipotle_coyote 6y ago
  Given that virtually everyone developing Swift or Objective-C applications for the Mac is using Xcode whether or not they're publishing to the App Store, that just seems to be a real leap to take, though.
  - benologist 6y ago
    It certainly might be nothing, but it's hard to imagine they would say "all of their developers" are using Xcode to describe the current and diverse IDE landscape. A lot of developers are currently using multi-platform game engines, open technologies like HTML, multi-platform frameworks etc.
    - chipotle_coyote 6y ago
      It really isn't, though. There's a lot of IDEs and text editors out there, sure (I seem to collect them, myself). But if you're specifically writing Mac apps in Objective-C or Swift, the entire development chain is tied to Xcode, and all the developers writing apps for Mac or iOS that I know of -- not "developers writing apps on the Mac," but the specific subset of people writing apps for the Mac or iOS devices -- are using Xcode. The only other IDE I know of that's remotely competitive on this front is JetBrain's AppCode, but it has a tiny market share in comparison, and people developing native Mac apps in other languages are an even smaller group. (Also, it's not really like Apple to acknowledge competition in this space, especially anyone using non-native toolkits. They're not going to mention people writing Electron apps in the WWDC keynote, right?)
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
bootloop 6y ago
It is true that the boot process on ARM is more entangled with the platform then on x86. In contrast to x86 where you have to do additional steps to lock it down on ARM additional work of the system integrator is required to keep it open/customizable. Not sure if we can expect Apple (or anyone else who is not interest in this business case) to invest into that (if they don't explicitly state that the will). Edit: This touches a lot of areas, like auto-detection and configuration of hardware and sub-components (either connected or embedded into the SoC) or security specific areas like ARM TrustZone which has vendor specific implementations and secure boot procedures

zelly 6y ago

Thank you Apple for bringing the Year of the Linux Desktop

Ericson2314 6y ago
I do hope this indirectly helps Pine64 somehow too.
bdcravens 6y ago
Perhaps for developers, but I think most others will move back to Windows.

outworlder 6y ago

> They will lock down their PCs like the iPhone. Maybe, maybe not. Where did you hear that?

coolspot 6y ago
That was long coming with the Mac App Store, signed apps, TPM, abandonment of OpenGL/OpenCL, etc.

cududa 6y ago

Uhhhh when have you been able to pop out a CPU in a laptop and replace it yourself? A decade, at least?

xenadu02 6y ago

The Mac is the Mac. Apple Silicon doesn’t change that. You can set boot args, disable security, and other things the Mac has historically supported. In fact these things are required to develop 3rd-party kernel extensions which are still supported on Apple Silicon.

jasonhansel 6y ago
But will Apple let you run iOS apps in an environment where you can break iOS security guarantees? I suspect that this is the beginning of the end for sideloaded apps.
- xenadu02 6y ago
  I don't know how much clearer things can be. The Mac remains a Mac. It can run software from outside the App Store. That applies to Apple Silicon. This was specifically called out in the SOTU stream.
- ArgyleSound 6y ago
  The Platform State of the Union presentation made a particularly big deal of “this is the Mac and the things you expect from the Mac will function as they always did”, and demonstrating things like showing the iOS app container file and moving it around.

eugeniub 6y ago

> They will lock down their PCs like the iPhone. I have heard this claim for 10 years now. Still hasn't come true.

defnotashton2 6y ago
It is increasingly hard to install apps outside the store, and the lack of granularity and control for things like sip imo doesn't bode well.

neop1x 6y ago

They are going to get the Apple ecosystem even more closed and make desktop consumer platform like iPhone. Steve Jobs' dream coming true. I have never seen Linux running great on a ARM consumer device (like android tablets, smartphones) except ChromeOS devices. The big issues being unavailable graphics and other drivers and lack of ACPI (devicetree has to be provided separately). Some attempts were able to get Linux on framebuffer with some X patches but system upgrades required special care and having just framebuffer is slow and useless. And that is what will be achievable at most. ARM means freedom for manufacturers, not for consumers/end users! I suspect Apple will also put there multiple proprietary accelerators and specialized chips to make things faster by offloading some work which won't be accessible from Linux, of course.