11 ms·

Not trying to start a flame war, but as an Android user I can't help but find it shocking and funny that something this basic is a headline in 2020

g-garron 6y ago
Android gives one more freedom here and there, but tracks you more. At the very end we are tied to Google or Apple, and that is bad.
- ragnese 6y ago
  1. We don't really know what Apple is or isn't collecting from you. 2. You can run de-Googled Android and still do the important 80% of things that a smart-phone is good for.
  - jjcon 6y ago
    1. Sure we do, they spell it out very clearly here: https://www.apple.com/privacy/ https://www.apple.com/privacy/ 2. I beg to differ. A completely de-googled phone is not only extremely difficult to achieve but about as useful as a 2009 blackberry. Yeah it runs and will maybe let you check your email with 5+ hours of work just to get push notifications running but it is so completely impractical for anyone that doesn’t want to devote serious amounts of time to it. With Apple you a good balance of privacy and utility imo.
    - ragnese 6y ago
      My intention here isn't necessarily to tell you what to use or buy. 1. There is nothing legally binding here, as far as I can tell. Apple software is almost entirely closed source. Zoom told us they were encrypting our stuff, too. I know that Apple can't get away with too much because of their size, but I have a very strong distrust of big tech companies that I'll likely never shake because of the disgusting track record silicon valley has toward privacy and short-sighted profit-making. Take this text for example: "Apple can’t read your iMessages while they’re being sent between you and the person you’re texting." What does it mean that it can't see them while they're being sent? Can they see them once they're at rest? Is this just innocent vagueness of the English language, or sneaky shit? Similarly, they say they can't see your location in Maps. They make no promise with the browser. In fact, they don't promise they aren't snooping on 100% of the stuff in Safari- they only say they try to protect you from other companies tracking you. 2. I don't disagree with you. And I'm just kind of a Luddite because I just don't care if I can run SnapChat or whatever on my phone. I can browse the web with a solid, privacy-respecting, browser (Firefox) with all of the privacy addons I want. I can use that browser to access the things I care about. I do use a closed-source navigation app, unfortunately, but it isn't Google and doesn't require Play services. I lock down its permissions as best I can. I use Signal for most of my messaging needs, which works fine. The one thing I actually do miss is ride-sharing apps when I travel. That's a major inconvenience. But some shitty game or social media app whose entire purpose is to track you (whether you use/trust Apple/Google's OSes or not...)? No thanks, anyway. In fact, I think there's another point in here that most of these apps are tracking the hell out of you, regardless if you trust your phone's OS.
      - jjcon 6y ago
        > Is this just innocent vagueness of the English language, or sneaky shit? They use simple language to make it not seem like legalese - If you want the tech details see the white papers they have linked. > What does it mean that it can't see them while they're being sent? Can they see them once they're at rest? No messages are end to end encrypted by default https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 > they say they can't see your location in Maps. They make no promise with the browser Apple Maps doesn’t have a browser version, just and iOS and Mac OS app. Additionally see above link, all location and search history is end to end encrypted - maps searches (and other location based events that cannot be encrypted due to server side processing) are not linked to your Apple ID. > In fact, they don't promise they aren't snooping on 100% of the stuff in Safari Again see above link, safari history and tab sync is also end to end encrypted
        saagarjha 6y ago
        > Apple Maps doesn’t have a browser version It can, however, be integrated via the JavaScript SDK. DuckDuckGo uses it, for example.
        ragnese 6y ago
        I wasn't being clear with the maps-browser comment. I meant that they make no promise that they aren't tracking your location outside of the Maps app. It's great that they claim to end-to-end encrypt their stuff. And after the FBI standoff around the San Bernardino shooters phones, I recommend that my friends and family use Apple because the options for most humans are between Windows and macOS on PCS, and iPhone and (stock, OEM) Android for phones. They definitely talk the talk and appear to walk the walk. We can never truly know, though. I know there's no point in arguing further. I fully acknowledge that I have less objective reason to believe that Apple is tracking me than you have to believe that they're not. But all of my friends thought I was the crazy tinfoil hat guy in the period between the signing of the U.S. Patriot Act and Edward Snowden. And after that... they still think I'm the crazy tinfoil hat guy. Maybe I'm a broken clock and was right once, or maybe Silicon Valley is full of corporate scumbag liars and maybe companies lie about their encryption (Zoom) and about their stance on privacy (Facebook). Maybe Apple is the lone shining beacon of privacy in SV. Maybe.
- bad_user 6y ago
  Do you have some evidence on how Android tracks you or is this just a guess?
  - jjcon 6y ago
    Just go see for yourself: https://myactivity.google.com/ https://myactivity.google.com/ Location, web searches, app usage etc etc. Try turning all tracking off and your phone becomes a brick. Google Assistant no longer works, google maps can no longer remember where your home and work are (cause that can’t happen on device for some reason). Top it all off and you’ll get constant pop ups asking you to turn it back on.... not fun.
    - underwater 6y ago
      > google maps can no longer remember where your home and work are (cause that can’t happen on device for some reason) This is such a user-hostile product choice. Google will happily let me favourite a place but refuse to create work and home labels.
    - lern_too_spel 6y ago
      That's not Android. Those are Google apps. They would track you just the same if you ran them on iOS or any other OS, and you can turn them off very easily.
      - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
        This is not limited to just those with Google Play Services installed. Even nearly pure AOSP builds like LineageOS still default to Google’s DNS servers, wifi gateway checks, and SUPL server, and replacing those defaults with privacy-respecting alternatives has been made harder due to changes that Google pushed into AOSP.
        bad_user 6y ago
        Google Play Services provides valuable services that need a backend component. I asked for evidence that Google tracks you in nefarious ways via Android. Am I being tracked when using their DNS servers, which are otherwise very valuable for people suffering from DNS-level banning of websites? And what do you mean by "privacy respecting"? Words are cheap. I hope the privacy respecting apps and services you use can guarantee that either via technology (encryption, open source, reproducible builds), or via contract (and a ToS that can be changed on a whim for a free service isn't a contract that can protect you).
- lern_too_spel 6y ago
  On the contrary, iOS actually tracks you far more than Android. This is just marketing-driven conventional wisdom that doesn't hold up when you take even the most cursory look at it. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23329646 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23329646
  - CharlesW 6y ago
    You're citing your own claim, but it doesn't look like anybody's buying it. Here's an actual study: https://www.tomsguide.com/us/android-privacy-vs-iphone,news-27856.html https://www.tomsguide.com/us/android-privacy-vs-iphone,news-...
    - lern_too_spel 6y ago
      You are comparing default apps privacy and saying that is OS privacy. I specifically pointed out data collection in the OS (that you can't turn off) that make iOS far worse than Android for privacy. Your paper also compares the amount of data sent to Google for an Android device using default apps vs. an iPhone using default apps and shows that the latter sends much more. That's not a very useful comparison. If you compare how much each device sends to Apple, the Android device would win by a landslide, though again, that is not a useful comparison.
      - CharlesW 6y ago
        > I specifically pointed out data collection in the OS (that you can't turn off) that make iOS far worse than Android for privacy. I think this claim is even more absurd when constrained to "default apps". But I'm listening—citations welcome.
        lern_too_spel 6y ago
        I gave you a link. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23329646 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23329646 Which part of it my assertions did you have trouble following? I'll quote it below in case you have trouble following the link, but I worry this might violate a repetition rule: iOS having better privacy is a myth. iOS sends your location to Apple every time any the GPS is used, and you can't turn it off. You cannot install apps on your phone without telling Apple which apps they are, and if you want to develop your own apps for your device without having to reinstall weekly, you have to hand over payment information. Stock Android devices from nearly any vendor do not suffer from these problems, and reputable vendors do even better (like in this case, where even voice transcription does not send data off device).
egypturnash 6y ago
iOS finally gets homescreen widgets mixed with the icons, too! But you still have to deal with everything wanting to flow up to the top left, god forbid you should arrange things for easy access to your thumb or to look nice around your background. I've been on iOS for years and yeah, this is comedy.
- notJim 6y ago
  I'm still waiting for iOS to steal Android's notification system which has been vastly superior forever. People who've only ever used iOS think I'm crazy when I say this, because iOS notifications are so useless they can't imagine what a useful version would be like.
  - setr 6y ago
    I'm on android, and I really have no idea what you're talking about -- they're both fairly useless. What apps do anything notable with notifications beyond reply-inline function? Which iphone's have had at least since last year, when I dropped off it Though I'm on samsung so they might have customized useful features right out (they do have the neat notification bubble thing + non-fullscreen apps, but it doesn't seem to be fully developed -- lots of small bugs -- so I'm assuming that's non-standard android).
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - panopticon 6y ago
    Yeah, I just switched back to iOS last year after being on Android for ~5 years. The notification coalescing and types of actions you can take right from the notification blow iOS out of the water.
  - grishka 6y ago
    I'm a loyal Android user since smartphones became a thing. I do own an iPhone because I had to write some cross-platform code on one of my jobs, but I can't fathom using iOS in part because of how laughably useless the notification system is. It could as well not have any, it won't make a difference. Notifications disappear when you unlock, badges on icons are always there with some arbitrary numbers on them, notification center shows something from last year but not the notification you received a minute ago, and the best part: some "notifications" are modal alerts that pop up right in your face when you least expect. And they have the audacity to call this the world's most advanced mobile OS.
lordgrenville 6y ago
I'm a pretty happy MBP user, but any time I have to use my partner's iPhone I'm blown away by how frustrating and opaque iOS is.
- xwowsersx 6y ago
  Same. Happy MBP user, just seems like iPhone users are still asking for table stakes.
- ponker 6y ago
  People get used to things. I feel the same way about picking up an Android. People who live in New York and people who live in Nome probably would find the other’s lifestyle frustrating and opaque.
  - mbreese 6y ago
    I was recently at a party when one person asked someone to take a photo with their phone. They were the only ones there with an Android phone. Not a one of the rest of us could figure out how to do it quickly. The stress of needing to be quick might have also played a part. I’m sure I could figure it out without the pressure, but in the moment, it was impossible to figure out what button did what. I think someone just took a picture with their own iPhone and sent it via email.
    - wlesieutre 6y ago
      By the same token, if you don't own an iPhone there's no way you'll find "Swipe over on the lock screen to quickly access the camera" because there's no visible indication that it exists. Nor would you know that swiping down from the battery meter might give you a camera shortcut, or that pulling down on the home screen icons gives you the search box. So you'd probably be hunting through the home screen icons on a borrowed phone to find where they put the camera app.
      - mbreese 6y ago
        I don't know... my lock screen has a camera icon always visible. When you tap it, you get an isolated camera mode that only shows you photos taken in that session. That's the standard screen now, so I think Apple is doing okay on the discoverability front (for that specific use-case -- possibly the only case where something is discoverable in iOS). But I still don't know how to take a picture on an Android phone. I have no idea what the Android virtual buttons mean or what they do at all. With similar logic, my wife still has an iPhone with a physical home button because she doesn't like my (now old) iPhone with the "swipe up" home motion. She doesn't really want to learn how to use a new (ish) gesture. And while I'm on a roll... I also don't understand the buttons on Playstation controllers, preferring the direct lettering of the Xbox or Switch. We are all ultimately creatures of habit.
MR4D 6y ago
A few things to note about Apple & Apple users: 1 - Apple doesn't focus on "first". More often, they are usually focused on a better integration of something than being first. Obvious exceptions include things like 64-bit phone chips, but usually not first. 2 - most Apple users (note that I am saying users, and not developers or power users) prefer it that way. They prefer simplicity over raw power - sort of the revers of a linux command line user. 3 - Even the power users tend to like something that keeps them in the Apple camp. For me, it's the ecosystem an approach to privacy and security - I can help my parents be safe easier on an iPhone/iPad/etc than I could on an Android phone. 4 - For many (most?) people, the apple email app is better than most alternatives. Personally I run gmail, outlook, and apple, and prefer Apple in most situations (not all, but most). Think of this as "I can't believe that Lexus doesn't have an electric car yet" - most Lexus users don't really care because they are happy with the product as is. Would some subset prefer it? sure, but not enough to outweigh the reasons they bought the Lexus in the first place. 5 - I'm not an Android user, but I agree - it is a funny headline in 2020.
- xwowsersx 6y ago
  Oh I totally get all of this and I agree that it's fair to characterize Apple's bent as being UX at the expense of user freedom and that many people _specifically want_ this, but at this point it's overstated as applied to some of these features. For example, default browser - Apple doesn't need Android's complicated system whereby you choose whether this app opens up links of a certain type always or just this once, etc. Apple could just have a setting where you choose your browser. Unless I'm just naive, this should add no overhead in terms of UX. Same applies to email client.
  - MR4D 6y ago
    I wonder[1]. Not disagreeing, and I'm not a systems programmer, so I can image that there are aspects of things to make something truly secure[1] that you have to chase down all these rabbit holes. I look at OpenBSD and see how long it takes them to do something fairly "simple", and use that as a guideline for security development integration timeframes. Of course, OpenBSD isn't backed by a trillion dollar company either. Oddly, I fall into the Mac + Linux camp. I love using MacOS (yes, even Catalina works for me), but I love that doing development/server stuff on Linux is so clean. What both do for me is minimize the brain clutter (and that's one reason I can't grok the idea of doing server development in Xcode). [0] - I don't think you're being naive. Also, being a fan of guys like Krebs on Security makes me realize that doing this right is not so much hard as it is painstaking. [1] - no, I definitely don't think iOS is totally secure, but I think it's harder to screw up as a user than competitors.
DevKoala 6y ago
I do it for the privacy. Google auctions user data to third parties for micro dollars on their ad exchange. https://static.googleusercontent.com/media/www.google.com/en//adexchange/AdExchangeOverview.pdf https://static.googleusercontent.com/media/www.google.com/en... Apple has no such business.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  Being able to change your default apps has nothing to do with privacy and everything to do with platform control.
  - DevKoala 6y ago
    I stick with Apple for the privacy. There are features on Android I wish to use, but I can’t bring myself to use an Android phone or putting the effort of cleaning it from all of Google’s trackers.
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      You can just flash your phone with LineageOS. Takes about an hour, and you're done.
      - swagonomixxx 6y ago
        What about all the apps that need the "Google Play Services" libraries?
        codethief 6y ago
        There's always MicroG and the MicroG-infused version of LineageOS: https://microg.org/ https://microg.org/ https://lineage.microg.org/ https://lineage.microg.org/
        sendilkumarn 6y ago
scarface74 6y ago
I find it equally shocking that if I bought an Android phone three years ago, that any new feature Google introduced would be absolutely useless to me without buying a new phone....
- vinay427 6y ago
  This misses the point in my opinion. Android doesn't depend on Google for much of its functionality, unlike iOS with Apple. For example, I can install a command line-style launcher, animated wallpapers, alternative app stores, and other non-Google features without any rooting or other unapproved modifications because Android as a platform is far more flexible. With unapproved modifications, I can also bypass Google services entirely and depend on the open-source community.
  - scarface74 6y ago
    As long as you ignore those unimportant security updates....
    - vinay427 6y ago
      Sure, that's definitely a worthy point that I gladly agree with, although it's a different point. I would maintain that older Android devices generally feel less out of date, feature-wise, than iOS devices of a similar vintage because far fewer features need to be handled by the core OS.
      - scarface74 6y ago
        Yeah. Tell that to my son who had a Moto G before he “upgraded” to my old iPhone 6s (introduced 2015) that was 3 years older. The Moto 3 was always touted as a good midrange phone. It might have felt better “feature wise” if he had toyed with it, but Android hardware just doesn’t age well. I can’t imagine burdening it with more features from third parties. Btw, the iPhone 6s is still running the latest iOS version.
RIMR 6y ago
Yeah, I've never owned an iOS product. I am aghast that this basic limitation has existed this entire time.
monadic2 6y ago
There’s no accounting for the priorities of large corporations.
smittywerben 6y ago
How do you SSH on android?
- twicetwice 6y ago
  Termux is a pretty much full-fledged linux userland in an app. I've run a Node.js server from my phone and connected to it from my laptop. I've written code in vim. I've ssh'd into many a server. All in Termux. It's the best.
lolsal 6y ago
For what it's worth as a long time Apple user, I don't have any use for this feature. I think Apple knows this, which probably contributes to they have punted it for so long. shrug

g-garron 6y ago

Android gives one more freedom here and there, but tracks you more. At the very end we are tied to Google or Apple, and that is bad.

ragnese 6y ago
1. We don't really know what Apple is or isn't collecting from you. 2. You can run de-Googled Android and still do the important 80% of things that a smart-phone is good for.
- jjcon 6y ago
  1. Sure we do, they spell it out very clearly here: https://www.apple.com/privacy/ https://www.apple.com/privacy/ 2. I beg to differ. A completely de-googled phone is not only extremely difficult to achieve but about as useful as a 2009 blackberry. Yeah it runs and will maybe let you check your email with 5+ hours of work just to get push notifications running but it is so completely impractical for anyone that doesn’t want to devote serious amounts of time to it. With Apple you a good balance of privacy and utility imo.
  - ragnese 6y ago
    My intention here isn't necessarily to tell you what to use or buy. 1. There is nothing legally binding here, as far as I can tell. Apple software is almost entirely closed source. Zoom told us they were encrypting our stuff, too. I know that Apple can't get away with too much because of their size, but I have a very strong distrust of big tech companies that I'll likely never shake because of the disgusting track record silicon valley has toward privacy and short-sighted profit-making. Take this text for example: "Apple can’t read your iMessages while they’re being sent between you and the person you’re texting." What does it mean that it can't see them while they're being sent? Can they see them once they're at rest? Is this just innocent vagueness of the English language, or sneaky shit? Similarly, they say they can't see your location in Maps. They make no promise with the browser. In fact, they don't promise they aren't snooping on 100% of the stuff in Safari- they only say they try to protect you from other companies tracking you. 2. I don't disagree with you. And I'm just kind of a Luddite because I just don't care if I can run SnapChat or whatever on my phone. I can browse the web with a solid, privacy-respecting, browser (Firefox) with all of the privacy addons I want. I can use that browser to access the things I care about. I do use a closed-source navigation app, unfortunately, but it isn't Google and doesn't require Play services. I lock down its permissions as best I can. I use Signal for most of my messaging needs, which works fine. The one thing I actually do miss is ride-sharing apps when I travel. That's a major inconvenience. But some shitty game or social media app whose entire purpose is to track you (whether you use/trust Apple/Google's OSes or not...)? No thanks, anyway. In fact, I think there's another point in here that most of these apps are tracking the hell out of you, regardless if you trust your phone's OS.
    - jjcon 6y ago
      > Is this just innocent vagueness of the English language, or sneaky shit? They use simple language to make it not seem like legalese - If you want the tech details see the white papers they have linked. > What does it mean that it can't see them while they're being sent? Can they see them once they're at rest? No messages are end to end encrypted by default https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 > they say they can't see your location in Maps. They make no promise with the browser Apple Maps doesn’t have a browser version, just and iOS and Mac OS app. Additionally see above link, all location and search history is end to end encrypted - maps searches (and other location based events that cannot be encrypted due to server side processing) are not linked to your Apple ID. > In fact, they don't promise they aren't snooping on 100% of the stuff in Safari Again see above link, safari history and tab sync is also end to end encrypted
      - saagarjha 6y ago
        > Apple Maps doesn’t have a browser version It can, however, be integrated via the JavaScript SDK. DuckDuckGo uses it, for example.
      - ragnese 6y ago
        I wasn't being clear with the maps-browser comment. I meant that they make no promise that they aren't tracking your location outside of the Maps app. It's great that they claim to end-to-end encrypt their stuff. And after the FBI standoff around the San Bernardino shooters phones, I recommend that my friends and family use Apple because the options for most humans are between Windows and macOS on PCS, and iPhone and (stock, OEM) Android for phones. They definitely talk the talk and appear to walk the walk. We can never truly know, though. I know there's no point in arguing further. I fully acknowledge that I have less objective reason to believe that Apple is tracking me than you have to believe that they're not. But all of my friends thought I was the crazy tinfoil hat guy in the period between the signing of the U.S. Patriot Act and Edward Snowden. And after that... they still think I'm the crazy tinfoil hat guy. Maybe I'm a broken clock and was right once, or maybe Silicon Valley is full of corporate scumbag liars and maybe companies lie about their encryption (Zoom) and about their stance on privacy (Facebook). Maybe Apple is the lone shining beacon of privacy in SV. Maybe.
bad_user 6y ago
Do you have some evidence on how Android tracks you or is this just a guess?
- jjcon 6y ago
  Just go see for yourself: https://myactivity.google.com/ https://myactivity.google.com/ Location, web searches, app usage etc etc. Try turning all tracking off and your phone becomes a brick. Google Assistant no longer works, google maps can no longer remember where your home and work are (cause that can’t happen on device for some reason). Top it all off and you’ll get constant pop ups asking you to turn it back on.... not fun.
  - underwater 6y ago
    > google maps can no longer remember where your home and work are (cause that can’t happen on device for some reason) This is such a user-hostile product choice. Google will happily let me favourite a place but refuse to create work and home labels.
  - lern_too_spel 6y ago
    That's not Android. Those are Google apps. They would track you just the same if you ran them on iOS or any other OS, and you can turn them off very easily.
    - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
      This is not limited to just those with Google Play Services installed. Even nearly pure AOSP builds like LineageOS still default to Google’s DNS servers, wifi gateway checks, and SUPL server, and replacing those defaults with privacy-respecting alternatives has been made harder due to changes that Google pushed into AOSP.
      - bad_user 6y ago
        Google Play Services provides valuable services that need a backend component. I asked for evidence that Google tracks you in nefarious ways via Android. Am I being tracked when using their DNS servers, which are otherwise very valuable for people suffering from DNS-level banning of websites? And what do you mean by "privacy respecting"? Words are cheap. I hope the privacy respecting apps and services you use can guarantee that either via technology (encryption, open source, reproducible builds), or via contract (and a ToS that can be changed on a whim for a free service isn't a contract that can protect you).
lern_too_spel 6y ago
On the contrary, iOS actually tracks you far more than Android. This is just marketing-driven conventional wisdom that doesn't hold up when you take even the most cursory look at it. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23329646 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23329646
- CharlesW 6y ago
  You're citing your own claim, but it doesn't look like anybody's buying it. Here's an actual study: https://www.tomsguide.com/us/android-privacy-vs-iphone,news-27856.html https://www.tomsguide.com/us/android-privacy-vs-iphone,news-...
  - lern_too_spel 6y ago
    You are comparing default apps privacy and saying that is OS privacy. I specifically pointed out data collection in the OS (that you can't turn off) that make iOS far worse than Android for privacy. Your paper also compares the amount of data sent to Google for an Android device using default apps vs. an iPhone using default apps and shows that the latter sends much more. That's not a very useful comparison. If you compare how much each device sends to Apple, the Android device would win by a landslide, though again, that is not a useful comparison.
    - CharlesW 6y ago
      > I specifically pointed out data collection in the OS (that you can't turn off) that make iOS far worse than Android for privacy. I think this claim is even more absurd when constrained to "default apps". But I'm listening—citations welcome.
      - lern_too_spel 6y ago
        I gave you a link. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23329646 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23329646 Which part of it my assertions did you have trouble following? I'll quote it below in case you have trouble following the link, but I worry this might violate a repetition rule: iOS having better privacy is a myth. iOS sends your location to Apple every time any the GPS is used, and you can't turn it off. You cannot install apps on your phone without telling Apple which apps they are, and if you want to develop your own apps for your device without having to reinstall weekly, you have to hand over payment information. Stock Android devices from nearly any vendor do not suffer from these problems, and reputable vendors do even better (like in this case, where even voice transcription does not send data off device).

egypturnash 6y ago

iOS finally gets homescreen widgets mixed with the icons, too! But you still have to deal with everything wanting to flow up to the top left, god forbid you should arrange things for easy access to your thumb or to look nice around your background. I've been on iOS for years and yeah, this is comedy.

notJim 6y ago
I'm still waiting for iOS to steal Android's notification system which has been vastly superior forever. People who've only ever used iOS think I'm crazy when I say this, because iOS notifications are so useless they can't imagine what a useful version would be like.
- setr 6y ago
  I'm on android, and I really have no idea what you're talking about -- they're both fairly useless. What apps do anything notable with notifications beyond reply-inline function? Which iphone's have had at least since last year, when I dropped off it Though I'm on samsung so they might have customized useful features right out (they do have the neat notification bubble thing + non-fullscreen apps, but it doesn't seem to be fully developed -- lots of small bugs -- so I'm assuming that's non-standard android).
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- panopticon 6y ago
  Yeah, I just switched back to iOS last year after being on Android for ~5 years. The notification coalescing and types of actions you can take right from the notification blow iOS out of the water.
- grishka 6y ago
  I'm a loyal Android user since smartphones became a thing. I do own an iPhone because I had to write some cross-platform code on one of my jobs, but I can't fathom using iOS in part because of how laughably useless the notification system is. It could as well not have any, it won't make a difference. Notifications disappear when you unlock, badges on icons are always there with some arbitrary numbers on them, notification center shows something from last year but not the notification you received a minute ago, and the best part: some "notifications" are modal alerts that pop up right in your face when you least expect. And they have the audacity to call this the world's most advanced mobile OS.

lordgrenville 6y ago

I'm a pretty happy MBP user, but any time I have to use my partner's iPhone I'm blown away by how frustrating and opaque iOS is.

xwowsersx 6y ago
Same. Happy MBP user, just seems like iPhone users are still asking for table stakes.
ponker 6y ago
People get used to things. I feel the same way about picking up an Android. People who live in New York and people who live in Nome probably would find the other’s lifestyle frustrating and opaque.
- mbreese 6y ago
  I was recently at a party when one person asked someone to take a photo with their phone. They were the only ones there with an Android phone. Not a one of the rest of us could figure out how to do it quickly. The stress of needing to be quick might have also played a part. I’m sure I could figure it out without the pressure, but in the moment, it was impossible to figure out what button did what. I think someone just took a picture with their own iPhone and sent it via email.
  - wlesieutre 6y ago
    By the same token, if you don't own an iPhone there's no way you'll find "Swipe over on the lock screen to quickly access the camera" because there's no visible indication that it exists. Nor would you know that swiping down from the battery meter might give you a camera shortcut, or that pulling down on the home screen icons gives you the search box. So you'd probably be hunting through the home screen icons on a borrowed phone to find where they put the camera app.
    - mbreese 6y ago
      I don't know... my lock screen has a camera icon always visible. When you tap it, you get an isolated camera mode that only shows you photos taken in that session. That's the standard screen now, so I think Apple is doing okay on the discoverability front (for that specific use-case -- possibly the only case where something is discoverable in iOS). But I still don't know how to take a picture on an Android phone. I have no idea what the Android virtual buttons mean or what they do at all. With similar logic, my wife still has an iPhone with a physical home button because she doesn't like my (now old) iPhone with the "swipe up" home motion. She doesn't really want to learn how to use a new (ish) gesture. And while I'm on a roll... I also don't understand the buttons on Playstation controllers, preferring the direct lettering of the Xbox or Switch. We are all ultimately creatures of habit.

MR4D 6y ago

A few things to note about Apple & Apple users: 1 - Apple doesn't focus on "first". More often, they are usually focused on a better integration of something than being first. Obvious exceptions include things like 64-bit phone chips, but usually not first. 2 - most Apple users (note that I am saying users, and not developers or power users) prefer it that way. They prefer simplicity over raw power - sort of the revers of a linux command line user. 3 - Even the power users tend to like something that keeps them in the Apple camp. For me, it's the ecosystem an approach to privacy and security - I can help my parents be safe easier on an iPhone/iPad/etc than I could on an Android phone. 4 - For many (most?) people, the apple email app is better than most alternatives. Personally I run gmail, outlook, and apple, and prefer Apple in most situations (not all, but most). Think of this as "I can't believe that Lexus doesn't have an electric car yet" - most Lexus users don't really care because they are happy with the product as is. Would some subset prefer it? sure, but not enough to outweigh the reasons they bought the Lexus in the first place. 5 - I'm not an Android user, but I agree - it is a funny headline in 2020.

xwowsersx 6y ago
Oh I totally get all of this and I agree that it's fair to characterize Apple's bent as being UX at the expense of user freedom and that many people _specifically want_ this, but at this point it's overstated as applied to some of these features. For example, default browser - Apple doesn't need Android's complicated system whereby you choose whether this app opens up links of a certain type always or just this once, etc. Apple could just have a setting where you choose your browser. Unless I'm just naive, this should add no overhead in terms of UX. Same applies to email client.
- MR4D 6y ago
  I wonder[1]. Not disagreeing, and I'm not a systems programmer, so I can image that there are aspects of things to make something truly secure[1] that you have to chase down all these rabbit holes. I look at OpenBSD and see how long it takes them to do something fairly "simple", and use that as a guideline for security development integration timeframes. Of course, OpenBSD isn't backed by a trillion dollar company either. Oddly, I fall into the Mac + Linux camp. I love using MacOS (yes, even Catalina works for me), but I love that doing development/server stuff on Linux is so clean. What both do for me is minimize the brain clutter (and that's one reason I can't grok the idea of doing server development in Xcode). [0] - I don't think you're being naive. Also, being a fan of guys like Krebs on Security makes me realize that doing this right is not so much hard as it is painstaking. [1] - no, I definitely don't think iOS is totally secure, but I think it's harder to screw up as a user than competitors.

DevKoala 6y ago

I do it for the privacy. Google auctions user data to third parties for micro dollars on their ad exchange. https://static.googleusercontent.com/media/www.google.com/en//adexchange/AdExchangeOverview.pdf https://static.googleusercontent.com/media/www.google.com/en... Apple has no such business.

saagarjha 6y ago
Being able to change your default apps has nothing to do with privacy and everything to do with platform control.
- DevKoala 6y ago
  I stick with Apple for the privacy. There are features on Android I wish to use, but I can’t bring myself to use an Android phone or putting the effort of cleaning it from all of Google’s trackers.
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    You can just flash your phone with LineageOS. Takes about an hour, and you're done.
    - swagonomixxx 6y ago
      What about all the apps that need the "Google Play Services" libraries?
      - codethief 6y ago
        There's always MicroG and the MicroG-infused version of LineageOS: https://microg.org/ https://microg.org/ https://lineage.microg.org/ https://lineage.microg.org/
        sendilkumarn 6y ago

scarface74 6y ago

I find it equally shocking that if I bought an Android phone three years ago, that any new feature Google introduced would be absolutely useless to me without buying a new phone....

vinay427 6y ago
This misses the point in my opinion. Android doesn't depend on Google for much of its functionality, unlike iOS with Apple. For example, I can install a command line-style launcher, animated wallpapers, alternative app stores, and other non-Google features without any rooting or other unapproved modifications because Android as a platform is far more flexible. With unapproved modifications, I can also bypass Google services entirely and depend on the open-source community.
- scarface74 6y ago
  As long as you ignore those unimportant security updates....
  - vinay427 6y ago
    Sure, that's definitely a worthy point that I gladly agree with, although it's a different point. I would maintain that older Android devices generally feel less out of date, feature-wise, than iOS devices of a similar vintage because far fewer features need to be handled by the core OS.
    - scarface74 6y ago
      Yeah. Tell that to my son who had a Moto G before he “upgraded” to my old iPhone 6s (introduced 2015) that was 3 years older. The Moto 3 was always touted as a good midrange phone. It might have felt better “feature wise” if he had toyed with it, but Android hardware just doesn’t age well. I can’t imagine burdening it with more features from third parties. Btw, the iPhone 6s is still running the latest iOS version.

RIMR 6y ago

Yeah, I've never owned an iOS product. I am aghast that this basic limitation has existed this entire time.

monadic2 6y ago

There’s no accounting for the priorities of large corporations.

smittywerben 6y ago

How do you SSH on android?

twicetwice 6y ago
Termux is a pretty much full-fledged linux userland in an app. I've run a Node.js server from my phone and connected to it from my laptop. I've written code in vim. I've ssh'd into many a server. All in Termux. It's the best.

lolsal 6y ago

For what it's worth as a long time Apple user, I don't have any use for this feature. I think Apple knows this, which probably contributes to they have punted it for so long. shrug