6 ms·

>not reporting, fiercely defending, or even lying to provide cover for the bad ones. And at that point, every person who tolerates the bad behaviors ends up ena

by banads 6y ago

>not reporting, fiercely defending, or even lying to provide cover for the bad ones. And at that point, every person who tolerates the bad behaviors ends up enabling them, and therefore become complicit in them. Precisely the same mentality is present in many of the most crime ridden neighborhoods in the US.[1] Are you able to think objectively for a moment, and see how your reaction to police doing that, is similar the police's reaction to criminals doing that? [1]https://youtu.be/nFhWpTKvD8E https://youtu.be/nFhWpTKvD8E

teddyh 6y ago
Classic whataboutism. EDIT: The commented post was edited after I wrote my original above comment. Now it’s more like victim-blaming.
- banads 6y ago
  When two things are directly interrelated (attitudes among police and attitudes among criminals), are we not allowed to discuss them both? Why not? Seems like you're trying to purposefully shun context, which isn't a practical way of understanding reality.
  - Apocryphon 6y ago
    For one thing, LEOs receive governmental and societal sanction, are armed with lethal force, and receive legal immunity, and so clearly should be held to a higher standard.
    - banads 6y ago
      Agreed! That still doesn't mean Collective Punishment is ethical https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment
      - enraged_camel 6y ago
        Defunding police departments (many of which everyone is realizing are grossly overfunded) and taking away qualified immunity (which is a protection entirely made up by the judicial branch, which the police have close relationships with) are not “collective punishment”.
        banads 6y ago
        Never said it was. Note the context of this conversation, and the article it is in reference to
      - guerrilla 6y ago
        Stopping all of agroup from doing something terrible is a far cry frol collective punishment. In fact there's no need to punish at all here, simple eliminate the problem.
        banads 6y ago
        That's not what were talking about here. Were talking about indiscriminate hacking/doxing of police, and the people who are cheering that on. How is that going to effectively address the root causes of police militarization?
  - teddyh 6y ago
    You might be trying to explain the behavior of police, but it sounds like you’re excusing it. Discussing causal relationships can sometimes be useful for finding a solution, and sometimes not, but must be done carefully if at all in tense situations.
    - banads 6y ago
      What precisely did I say that makes you think I'm trying to excuse, rather than explain? Is it merely the fact that I am not completely overwhelmed with rage against everyone who has the same job as the people who killed George Floyd and others? Often times in intense situations, maintaining objective emotional detachment rather than being overwhelmed by emotional knee jerk reactions can mean the difference between life and death, or a positive outcome and a negative one.
      - teddyh 6y ago
        > What precisely did I say that makes you think I'm trying to excuse, rather than explain? By only pointing a finger to the other side, you strongly hinted that the behavior of citizens was not only the cause of the behavior of police, you implied that it was also the solution to the problem of the behavior of police. This causal link may or may not be partially true, but nobody really cares about the cause, unless it helps with providing a solution to the problem. By only pointing to the cause, you imply that the solution to the problem lies there too, which, in this case, is both very questionable, and classic victim-blaming.
        banads 6y ago
        >By only pointing a finger to the other side You must have missed the very first thing I said in this comment chain: "I too dislike hyper aggressive militarized police who act above the law" >nobody really cares about the cause, unless it helps with providing a solution to the problem. By only pointing to the cause, you imply that the solution to the problem lies there too, which, in this case, is both very questionable, and classic victim-blaming. I'm startled to see so many people on a technical forum such as HN speaking as if they have no technical problem solving experience. Imagine there was a critical bug in some software you are responsible for, causing massive distress for millions of users, even killing some. The first step in debugging an issue is to identify the cause(s), right? Imagine if your non technical boss had the gall to scold you for trying to identify the cause(s), saying "nobody really cares about the cause..by only pointing to the cause, you imply that the solution to the problem lies there too".
- banads 6y ago
  The comment was not edited. Perhaps you realized how silly your first attempt at shutting down discussion was, and then tried another baseless and ineffectual dismissal.
  - teddyh 6y ago
    I could have sworn that the comment originally contained more text which expanded the finger-pointing towards neighborhood denizens, but I could certainly be mistaken. However, your speculatory accusations of me personally are unseemly, and, moreover, off topic.
stjohnswarts 6y ago
Sorry dude I live in a small town, our cops look like they're headed to do combat in Afghanistan most of the time, rather than to patrol sleepy suburban neighborhoods.
- banads 6y ago
  Yeah dude, police militarization is a huge problem in the US, I agree. Cheering on indiscriminate hacking/doxxing of any/all police as an attempt to solve the problem is infantile, though, and demonstrates a naive ignorance of the root causes.
  - teddyh 6y ago
    How does understanding the root causes help with providing a solution in this case?
    - banads 6y ago
      When does understanding a problem not help with solving that problem? "A problem adequately stated is a problem solved theoretically and immediately, and therefore subsequently to be solved, realistically." -Buckminster Fuller Anyone with any programming experience knows this.
      - teddyh 6y ago
        Many times, understanding the cause of the problem reveals that the cause of the problem is inherent and cannot, or should not, be changed. Take, for instance, the problem of unwanted pregnancies. The cause is sex. This naturally leads to thinking that the solution can only be abstinence. This kind of thinking limits you to solutions which sometimes are of the type which can never work. In this specific case, the problem of police behavior can partially be said to be caused by people behaving inappropriately towards police. Should therefore the solution be that people behave better towards police? How would you go about making that happen? This “solution” is impractical. The solution to a problem is sometimes unrelated to its cause.

by banads 6y ago

teddyh 6y ago

Classic whataboutism. EDIT: The commented post was edited after I wrote my original above comment. Now it’s more like victim-blaming.

banads 6y ago
When two things are directly interrelated (attitudes among police and attitudes among criminals), are we not allowed to discuss them both? Why not? Seems like you're trying to purposefully shun context, which isn't a practical way of understanding reality.
- Apocryphon 6y ago
  For one thing, LEOs receive governmental and societal sanction, are armed with lethal force, and receive legal immunity, and so clearly should be held to a higher standard.
  - banads 6y ago
    Agreed! That still doesn't mean Collective Punishment is ethical https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment
    - enraged_camel 6y ago
      Defunding police departments (many of which everyone is realizing are grossly overfunded) and taking away qualified immunity (which is a protection entirely made up by the judicial branch, which the police have close relationships with) are not “collective punishment”.
      - banads 6y ago
        Never said it was. Note the context of this conversation, and the article it is in reference to
    - guerrilla 6y ago
      Stopping all of agroup from doing something terrible is a far cry frol collective punishment. In fact there's no need to punish at all here, simple eliminate the problem.
      - banads 6y ago
        That's not what were talking about here. Were talking about indiscriminate hacking/doxing of police, and the people who are cheering that on. How is that going to effectively address the root causes of police militarization?
- teddyh 6y ago
  You might be trying to explain the behavior of police, but it sounds like you’re excusing it. Discussing causal relationships can sometimes be useful for finding a solution, and sometimes not, but must be done carefully if at all in tense situations.
  - banads 6y ago
    What precisely did I say that makes you think I'm trying to excuse, rather than explain? Is it merely the fact that I am not completely overwhelmed with rage against everyone who has the same job as the people who killed George Floyd and others? Often times in intense situations, maintaining objective emotional detachment rather than being overwhelmed by emotional knee jerk reactions can mean the difference between life and death, or a positive outcome and a negative one.
    - teddyh 6y ago
      > What precisely did I say that makes you think I'm trying to excuse, rather than explain? By only pointing a finger to the other side, you strongly hinted that the behavior of citizens was not only the cause of the behavior of police, you implied that it was also the solution to the problem of the behavior of police. This causal link may or may not be partially true, but nobody really cares about the cause, unless it helps with providing a solution to the problem. By only pointing to the cause, you imply that the solution to the problem lies there too, which, in this case, is both very questionable, and classic victim-blaming.
      - banads 6y ago
        >By only pointing a finger to the other side You must have missed the very first thing I said in this comment chain: "I too dislike hyper aggressive militarized police who act above the law" >nobody really cares about the cause, unless it helps with providing a solution to the problem. By only pointing to the cause, you imply that the solution to the problem lies there too, which, in this case, is both very questionable, and classic victim-blaming. I'm startled to see so many people on a technical forum such as HN speaking as if they have no technical problem solving experience. Imagine there was a critical bug in some software you are responsible for, causing massive distress for millions of users, even killing some. The first step in debugging an issue is to identify the cause(s), right? Imagine if your non technical boss had the gall to scold you for trying to identify the cause(s), saying "nobody really cares about the cause..by only pointing to the cause, you imply that the solution to the problem lies there too".
banads 6y ago
The comment was not edited. Perhaps you realized how silly your first attempt at shutting down discussion was, and then tried another baseless and ineffectual dismissal.
- teddyh 6y ago
  I could have sworn that the comment originally contained more text which expanded the finger-pointing towards neighborhood denizens, but I could certainly be mistaken. However, your speculatory accusations of me personally are unseemly, and, moreover, off topic.

stjohnswarts 6y ago

Sorry dude I live in a small town, our cops look like they're headed to do combat in Afghanistan most of the time, rather than to patrol sleepy suburban neighborhoods.

banads 6y ago
Yeah dude, police militarization is a huge problem in the US, I agree. Cheering on indiscriminate hacking/doxxing of any/all police as an attempt to solve the problem is infantile, though, and demonstrates a naive ignorance of the root causes.
- teddyh 6y ago
  How does understanding the root causes help with providing a solution in this case?
  - banads 6y ago
    When does understanding a problem not help with solving that problem? "A problem adequately stated is a problem solved theoretically and immediately, and therefore subsequently to be solved, realistically." -Buckminster Fuller Anyone with any programming experience knows this.
    - teddyh 6y ago
      Many times, understanding the cause of the problem reveals that the cause of the problem is inherent and cannot, or should not, be changed. Take, for instance, the problem of unwanted pregnancies. The cause is sex. This naturally leads to thinking that the solution can only be abstinence. This kind of thinking limits you to solutions which sometimes are of the type which can never work. In this specific case, the problem of police behavior can partially be said to be caused by people behaving inappropriately towards police. Should therefore the solution be that people behave better towards police? How would you go about making that happen? This “solution” is impractical. The solution to a problem is sometimes unrelated to its cause.