4 ms·

Still largely made in China. That means more recently than it used to.

danpalmer 6y ago
There may be quality reasons for this (source: I work in a company that produces clothes). There are typically two factors that are used to critique clothing production, ethics and quality. Ethically production in China is fairly easy to do well assuming you're not objecting wholesale to giving money to the Chinese economy. Working conditions are normally fine and can be great. In terms of quality, China is pretty good for a number of types of clothing. I don't know about activewear as we don't produce any, but for many categories at many price points they're basically as good as anywhere else. There are categories where they're not, regardless of how much you pay. I have a feeling that suits might have been one of these but not certain. For very high end clothing, production in Europe, particularly Italy, is a good sign. For anything else there's no reason why China can't compete on quality for most categories.
- kls 6y ago
  The question is do they hold the same standard for Chinese politics and Chinese corporations? If not, then why the double standard?
  - cmdshiftf4 6y ago
    >If not, then why the double standard? China, whether we like it or not, is strong. The West, and particularly its corporations, have shown themselves to be incredibly weak when it comes to kowtowing to what amounts to populism. So then why bother splitting efforts with fights you know you can't win when you can 100% invest in trouncing those who've shown weakness? Also bringing up China in particular opens a massive can of worms that nobody is really comfortable with. There's been a bunch of companies we all "know and love" who've shown their support for their protests and the BLM political entity over the course of the last few weeks whose output comes from what is essentially slavery in Asia. Again though, that is a conversation nobody seems to be eager to have.
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- deleted 6y ago
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- goliatone 6y ago
  The general industrial/infrastructure landscape in Europe has changed a lot after 2008, the effects of that crisis gave China a chance to reach and establish itself in many places/industries that pre-crisis were out of reach to them for “national security” or whatever reasons. See [1] for a bad article with a few interesting leads as a way to find out more but basically Chinese capital realized that made in China has a reputation problem and have bought italian brands and manufacturing businesses. I’m not suggesting that is nefarious but I am saying that is worth to learn more. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-italy-sweatshop-insight-idUSBRE9BS04D20131229 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-italy-sweatshop-insight-i...
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- pyuser583 6y ago
  Ethical production is easy in China? So it’s easy to recognize same sex partners of employees? Not engage in religious discrimination? To allow employees freedom expression in the workplace? I get that the Chinese government doesn’t allow these things (to varying degrees). But does the Chinese government expect employers to play a role in these policies? If an employee is discussing Falun Gong, or Tibetan independence, and a manger overhears, is it OK if the manager ignores it? This is a serious question. I don’t know the answer. Do you?
  - danpalmer 6y ago
    This is what I meant by "objecting wholesale to the Chinese economy", although I could have been clearer. These are all very important problems, but not manufacturing problems, they're problems with just living in China. By a similar measure we could say that it's not ethical to work for Patagonia because the US police regularly execute people of colour, or because abortion is effectively illegal in many states. I don't think these are useful arguments to make in this context, I think it's more useful to make them as their own thing. The ethical production I was talking about was more in terms of "sweat shops". It's likely in China that a worker in a factory is going to be paid enough to not be below the poverty line, is going to have no real problems with food or water. Also while their working environment isn't going to be up to the safety standards of Europe, it's unlikely that they will be very actively dangerous day to day.
mturmon 6y ago
I have more "Made in Vietnam" tags on my Patagonia clothes than "Made in China". Patagonia has been leading the way on ethical manufacturing for a long time. Easily since the late 1990s. They don't appear to be bargaining for rock-bottom price with their Chinese contractors -- they are asking for higher standards, both labor and environmental. According to their website, they have narrowed the list of contractors they work with so that they can monitor them better. Also, as their website points out, it's important to not fetishize American clothes manufacturing as such. The American textile industry is much smaller than it once was, due to NAFTA and related agreements. For a lot more, see: https://www.patagonia.com/stories/patagonia-clothing-made-where-how-why/story-18467.html https://www.patagonia.com/stories/patagonia-clothing-made-wh...
_eht 6y ago
It should be noted that in addition to this being true, they are also diversely testing other production lines in Vietnam and Sri Lanka. There may be others I am unaware of. This leads to the natural question-- are those countries' factories being managed better than those of China? Are we saying China bad, generally, or are we saying the state of factory workers is bad, wherever they clock in? If you are to believe the Patagucci mission statement, they are in a quest to better the world. One could deduce that this also includes working to better their supply chain.

There may be quality reasons for this (source: I work in a company that produces clothes). There are typically two factors that are used to critique clothing production, ethics and quality. Ethically production in China is fairly easy to do well assuming you're not objecting wholesale to giving money to the Chinese economy. Working conditions are normally fine and can be great. In terms of quality, China is pretty good for a number of types of clothing. I don't know about activewear as we don't produce any, but for many categories at many price points they're basically as good as anywhere else. There are categories where they're not, regardless of how much you pay. I have a feeling that suits might have been one of these but not certain. For very high end clothing, production in Europe, particularly Italy, is a good sign. For anything else there's no reason why China can't compete on quality for most categories.

kls 6y ago
The question is do they hold the same standard for Chinese politics and Chinese corporations? If not, then why the double standard?
- cmdshiftf4 6y ago
  >If not, then why the double standard? China, whether we like it or not, is strong. The West, and particularly its corporations, have shown themselves to be incredibly weak when it comes to kowtowing to what amounts to populism. So then why bother splitting efforts with fights you know you can't win when you can 100% invest in trouncing those who've shown weakness? Also bringing up China in particular opens a massive can of worms that nobody is really comfortable with. There's been a bunch of companies we all "know and love" who've shown their support for their protests and the BLM political entity over the course of the last few weeks whose output comes from what is essentially slavery in Asia. Again though, that is a conversation nobody seems to be eager to have.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 6y ago
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goliatone 6y ago
The general industrial/infrastructure landscape in Europe has changed a lot after 2008, the effects of that crisis gave China a chance to reach and establish itself in many places/industries that pre-crisis were out of reach to them for “national security” or whatever reasons. See [1] for a bad article with a few interesting leads as a way to find out more but basically Chinese capital realized that made in China has a reputation problem and have bought italian brands and manufacturing businesses. I’m not suggesting that is nefarious but I am saying that is worth to learn more. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-italy-sweatshop-insight-idUSBRE9BS04D20131229 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-italy-sweatshop-insight-i...
deleted 6y ago
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pyuser583 6y ago
Ethical production is easy in China? So it’s easy to recognize same sex partners of employees? Not engage in religious discrimination? To allow employees freedom expression in the workplace? I get that the Chinese government doesn’t allow these things (to varying degrees). But does the Chinese government expect employers to play a role in these policies? If an employee is discussing Falun Gong, or Tibetan independence, and a manger overhears, is it OK if the manager ignores it? This is a serious question. I don’t know the answer. Do you?
- danpalmer 6y ago
  This is what I meant by "objecting wholesale to the Chinese economy", although I could have been clearer. These are all very important problems, but not manufacturing problems, they're problems with just living in China. By a similar measure we could say that it's not ethical to work for Patagonia because the US police regularly execute people of colour, or because abortion is effectively illegal in many states. I don't think these are useful arguments to make in this context, I think it's more useful to make them as their own thing. The ethical production I was talking about was more in terms of "sweat shops". It's likely in China that a worker in a factory is going to be paid enough to not be below the poverty line, is going to have no real problems with food or water. Also while their working environment isn't going to be up to the safety standards of Europe, it's unlikely that they will be very actively dangerous day to day.

mturmon 6y ago

I have more "Made in Vietnam" tags on my Patagonia clothes than "Made in China". Patagonia has been leading the way on ethical manufacturing for a long time. Easily since the late 1990s. They don't appear to be bargaining for rock-bottom price with their Chinese contractors -- they are asking for higher standards, both labor and environmental. According to their website, they have narrowed the list of contractors they work with so that they can monitor them better. Also, as their website points out, it's important to not fetishize American clothes manufacturing as such. The American textile industry is much smaller than it once was, due to NAFTA and related agreements. For a lot more, see: https://www.patagonia.com/stories/patagonia-clothing-made-where-how-why/story-18467.html https://www.patagonia.com/stories/patagonia-clothing-made-wh...

_eht 6y ago

It should be noted that in addition to this being true, they are also diversely testing other production lines in Vietnam and Sri Lanka. There may be others I am unaware of. This leads to the natural question-- are those countries' factories being managed better than those of China? Are we saying China bad, generally, or are we saying the state of factory workers is bad, wherever they clock in? If you are to believe the Patagucci mission statement, they are in a quest to better the world. One could deduce that this also includes working to better their supply chain.