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I really like the German higher education system. Unfortunately, the USA conflates universities and applied universities. Most people who go to university in t

I really like the German higher education system. Unfortunately, the USA conflates universities and applied universities. Most people who go to university in the USA, go to what would be closer to a Fachhochschule. Smaller colleges and universities that don't grant PhDs and whose professors have research output is closer to "write a paper in the summer" than "run a research lab". Most people who have negative views toward their university experience in the USA, I think, feel that way because they thought they were going to a Fachhochschule but actually went to a university (or vice versa). I don't quite understand how the USA can look at our education system, look around the world, and then conclude that technology will be our salvation. No. Just build a system that works like the perfectly functional and affordable systems in much of Europe.

dpoochieni 6y ago
What not to love, they begin the class segregation early. Wait what? Guess they are that way after centuries of pretty authoritarian governments. Every one knows their place /s
- throwawaygh 6y ago
  The USA is just as bad, if not worse. The mechanisms are different but the effect is the same. If you don't take honors/AP courses throughout high school, then you're cut off from an entire world of possibilities. And if you are in the wrong ZIP code, you might not have access to those courses at all. Do you know what percentage of US high schools offer AP CS? The US segregates pretty heavily starting the last year of middle school / first year of high school. You can jump tracks, but it's hard (and the same is true in Germany btw). Some tracks aren't even available to poor (esp rural) folks. Wealth determines which tracks are available. Within the set of available tracks, teacher recommendations play a big role in which path a student is suggested to pursue. Biases exist, and people will often follow whatever path their parents followed. Although you can get into some college without honors/AP courses, those lower-tier colleges are typically closer to something like an applied university. With correspondingly similar differences in outcomes. So, in the USA, your ZIP code and teachers' decisions from freshman year of high school do have a large effect on your life path. Germany's system isn't perfect, but "egalitarianism" isn't a strong defense of the US system relative to Germany. If anything, the US system is worse. The idea that living in some particular part of the city might mean you actually can't get a gymnasium-level education is insane in Germany, but AP deserts are a de facto reality in large swaths of the US. At least in Germany it's explicit, people realize what's happening, it's at least somewhat merit-based, and your parent's ability to purchase expensive real estate doesn't play such a huge role.
  - dpoochieni 6y ago
    An apology for the snark, just remembered a comment a professor(anthropologist) made that so much of the German culture was shaped by the monarchical and authoritarian regimes, just highly hierarchical and regulated to death, that ruled over it. Not comparing to the US and not American just curious how cultural differences play out. Think both US and Germany still have it decently good compared to what you will see in other countries (just plain terrible). Now, these 2, I won't say one's situation is better than the other but it is curious that both models of public education have their origin in Prussia/Germany and seem to be keeping the original 19th Century purposes of reducing social unrest. I do see it is more difficult to keep a good level of education in the vast extension of the US with the current system. Seems it is in need of an overhaul but way deeper than AP courses. Like how would AP courses benefit a rural schoolkid other than maybe getting access to work in a city? Could we think there is any education for him to be a good farmer? (as 1 example, not sure if it is practical) Ideally, moonshot, he would be able to choose whichever path suited him best, whether more education or moving, etc...
    - throwawaygh 6y ago
      Yes, both are relatively better than many other systems. > Like how would AP courses benefit a rural schoolkid other than maybe getting access to work in a city? Could we think there is any education for him to be a good farmer? I think this perhaps misunderstands the typical life paths of rural students. 20% of the US population lives in rural counties, but only 2% of the population works in agriculture. And even that over-estimates the number of school children who will grow up to be farmers because a huge amount of the unskilled farm labor in the US is done by first generation migrants. So the average rural schoolkid in the USA isn't going to work on a farm (and the ones that do will often be skilled workers or owners and will therefore go off and get agricultural degrees.) The government runs a lot of jobs programs for rural areas. Things like state/federal prisons and military bases are intentionally placed in rural areas to provide employment opportunities. And of course national forests/parks tend to be in rural areas and provide a small but steady stream of jobs. We also explicitly subsidize hospitals and schools in those areas; the local tax/consumer base probably couldn't support those services on their own. So the government sector is the lifeblood of many small towns these days, at least as far as employment goes.
codethief 6y ago
> Unfortunately, the USA conflates universities and applied universities. This. I wish this point were brought up more often in these discussions in favor of/against universities. People tend to have entirely different ideas when it comes to what a higher-level education should provide: For some people it's a scientific way of thinking about the world, for others it's just preparation for a future (and hopefully better-paying) job. Separating those ideas might be a good first step in solving this conundrum.
- rboes2 6y ago
  Thank you for this perspective, I've never thought of it but it makes a lot of sense
zerkten 6y ago
> No. Just build a system that works like the perfectly functional and affordable systems in much of Europe. I don't see how that can happen until there is broader acknowledgement of what is actually appropriate in terms of education. No one is prepared to the admit that university degrees from PhD granting institutions aren't required, or are inappropriate, in all cases. College is now a prerequisite for many jobs that don't need a university-level education. People are lazy and upping the bar is an easy option compared to handling the risk of choosing a "less qualified", but appropriate candidate. Research drives investment while teaching doesn't. Even if you are a relatively bad at (or ill-equipped) for research you can still bring in money with this approach. In some cases, only parts of institutions should be participating, but you aren't a real university if your focus isn't primarily on "world class research." Students are stuck with a bunch of bad options. They are unlikely to want to disappoint parents who want them to go to college and be successful. If they go down an alternative route them they'll be filtered out because systems are built around people have degrees.

dpoochieni 6y ago

What not to love, they begin the class segregation early. Wait what? Guess they are that way after centuries of pretty authoritarian governments. Every one knows their place /s

throwawaygh 6y ago
The USA is just as bad, if not worse. The mechanisms are different but the effect is the same. If you don't take honors/AP courses throughout high school, then you're cut off from an entire world of possibilities. And if you are in the wrong ZIP code, you might not have access to those courses at all. Do you know what percentage of US high schools offer AP CS? The US segregates pretty heavily starting the last year of middle school / first year of high school. You can jump tracks, but it's hard (and the same is true in Germany btw). Some tracks aren't even available to poor (esp rural) folks. Wealth determines which tracks are available. Within the set of available tracks, teacher recommendations play a big role in which path a student is suggested to pursue. Biases exist, and people will often follow whatever path their parents followed. Although you can get into some college without honors/AP courses, those lower-tier colleges are typically closer to something like an applied university. With correspondingly similar differences in outcomes. So, in the USA, your ZIP code and teachers' decisions from freshman year of high school do have a large effect on your life path. Germany's system isn't perfect, but "egalitarianism" isn't a strong defense of the US system relative to Germany. If anything, the US system is worse. The idea that living in some particular part of the city might mean you actually can't get a gymnasium-level education is insane in Germany, but AP deserts are a de facto reality in large swaths of the US. At least in Germany it's explicit, people realize what's happening, it's at least somewhat merit-based, and your parent's ability to purchase expensive real estate doesn't play such a huge role.
- dpoochieni 6y ago
  An apology for the snark, just remembered a comment a professor(anthropologist) made that so much of the German culture was shaped by the monarchical and authoritarian regimes, just highly hierarchical and regulated to death, that ruled over it. Not comparing to the US and not American just curious how cultural differences play out. Think both US and Germany still have it decently good compared to what you will see in other countries (just plain terrible). Now, these 2, I won't say one's situation is better than the other but it is curious that both models of public education have their origin in Prussia/Germany and seem to be keeping the original 19th Century purposes of reducing social unrest. I do see it is more difficult to keep a good level of education in the vast extension of the US with the current system. Seems it is in need of an overhaul but way deeper than AP courses. Like how would AP courses benefit a rural schoolkid other than maybe getting access to work in a city? Could we think there is any education for him to be a good farmer? (as 1 example, not sure if it is practical) Ideally, moonshot, he would be able to choose whichever path suited him best, whether more education or moving, etc...
  - throwawaygh 6y ago
    Yes, both are relatively better than many other systems. > Like how would AP courses benefit a rural schoolkid other than maybe getting access to work in a city? Could we think there is any education for him to be a good farmer? I think this perhaps misunderstands the typical life paths of rural students. 20% of the US population lives in rural counties, but only 2% of the population works in agriculture. And even that over-estimates the number of school children who will grow up to be farmers because a huge amount of the unskilled farm labor in the US is done by first generation migrants. So the average rural schoolkid in the USA isn't going to work on a farm (and the ones that do will often be skilled workers or owners and will therefore go off and get agricultural degrees.) The government runs a lot of jobs programs for rural areas. Things like state/federal prisons and military bases are intentionally placed in rural areas to provide employment opportunities. And of course national forests/parks tend to be in rural areas and provide a small but steady stream of jobs. We also explicitly subsidize hospitals and schools in those areas; the local tax/consumer base probably couldn't support those services on their own. So the government sector is the lifeblood of many small towns these days, at least as far as employment goes.

codethief 6y ago

> Unfortunately, the USA conflates universities and applied universities. This. I wish this point were brought up more often in these discussions in favor of/against universities. People tend to have entirely different ideas when it comes to what a higher-level education should provide: For some people it's a scientific way of thinking about the world, for others it's just preparation for a future (and hopefully better-paying) job. Separating those ideas might be a good first step in solving this conundrum.

rboes2 6y ago
Thank you for this perspective, I've never thought of it but it makes a lot of sense

zerkten 6y ago

> No. Just build a system that works like the perfectly functional and affordable systems in much of Europe. I don't see how that can happen until there is broader acknowledgement of what is actually appropriate in terms of education. No one is prepared to the admit that university degrees from PhD granting institutions aren't required, or are inappropriate, in all cases. College is now a prerequisite for many jobs that don't need a university-level education. People are lazy and upping the bar is an easy option compared to handling the risk of choosing a "less qualified", but appropriate candidate. Research drives investment while teaching doesn't. Even if you are a relatively bad at (or ill-equipped) for research you can still bring in money with this approach. In some cases, only parts of institutions should be participating, but you aren't a real university if your focus isn't primarily on "world class research." Students are stuck with a bunch of bad options. They are unlikely to want to disappoint parents who want them to go to college and be successful. If they go down an alternative route them they'll be filtered out because systems are built around people have degrees.