5 ms·

> The point here, however, is what University is for all people Traditionally, that was not true and still is not true in places like Germany. A university is

> The point here, however, is what University is for all people Traditionally, that was not true and still is not true in places like Germany. A university is the place where you can get the highest education of a field, or ideally where you study a field on your own. Both requires a lot of prerequisites that not everybody fulfills. I am talking about knowledge, ability to learn although something is not flashy, and the will to endure. And it should be like that, otherwise you loose the ability to train the brightest people of a society. For everybody else, there are applied universities, dual study programs, and well established and respected vocational training programs, here in Germany. Replacing universities with a netflix-esque experience may seem attractive to students, but is doomed to fail to train students. The question how much teachers should adapt to the wishes to their students is as old as learning itself. In the end the students have to trust, that a teacher knows which material to cover to teach students the desired skills, facts, and abilities. For an example of that, search your trusted video-streaming platform for the film Karate Kid. ;-)

battery423 6y ago
University should still be open to everyone. Everyone should, independently from where they are and how rich they are, be able to study on an university if they are capable to do so. I believe that: 1. the entry barrier is not fair and designed for a very straight funnel you either fit through or not. 2. If you would open up an university even more and you don't allow anyone to missuse it (by sleeping at the university, playing games instead of listing, getting money while attending but not caring for it) it would not have any downsight but might allow one or other mind being part of it. I also have the feeling that people which were able to go through a bad university, already don't mind it anymore and don't care to optimize because it worked for them. We are not a poor soceity anymore and we have plenty of experience and technology. Its the duty of the university to try to help as many people as possible to learn the stuff you learn at the university. University is being paid by all people. Its also the reason why OpenAccess should be mandatory.
- oneplane 6y ago
  You can't cater to everyone, especially if what you serve is dependant on exiting skills, knowledge or levels of understanding. One would maybe argue that a university might fix that by making dumbed down versions of things or adding extra pre-learning options but at that point it just becomes a supermarket. If you try to cover everything and everyone you just end up being mediocre which is not the point of a university.
  - battery423 6y ago
    I'm not saying you have to dumb things down etc. but i do say that the university today is not doing enough and this in direct connection to modern technology, internet and digital.
throwawaygh 6y ago
I really like the German higher education system. Unfortunately, the USA conflates universities and applied universities. Most people who go to university in the USA, go to what would be closer to a Fachhochschule. Smaller colleges and universities that don't grant PhDs and whose professors have research output is closer to "write a paper in the summer" than "run a research lab". Most people who have negative views toward their university experience in the USA, I think, feel that way because they thought they were going to a Fachhochschule but actually went to a university (or vice versa). I don't quite understand how the USA can look at our education system, look around the world, and then conclude that technology will be our salvation. No. Just build a system that works like the perfectly functional and affordable systems in much of Europe.
- dpoochieni 6y ago
  What not to love, they begin the class segregation early. Wait what? Guess they are that way after centuries of pretty authoritarian governments. Every one knows their place /s
  - throwawaygh 6y ago
    The USA is just as bad, if not worse. The mechanisms are different but the effect is the same. If you don't take honors/AP courses throughout high school, then you're cut off from an entire world of possibilities. And if you are in the wrong ZIP code, you might not have access to those courses at all. Do you know what percentage of US high schools offer AP CS? The US segregates pretty heavily starting the last year of middle school / first year of high school. You can jump tracks, but it's hard (and the same is true in Germany btw). Some tracks aren't even available to poor (esp rural) folks. Wealth determines which tracks are available. Within the set of available tracks, teacher recommendations play a big role in which path a student is suggested to pursue. Biases exist, and people will often follow whatever path their parents followed. Although you can get into some college without honors/AP courses, those lower-tier colleges are typically closer to something like an applied university. With correspondingly similar differences in outcomes. So, in the USA, your ZIP code and teachers' decisions from freshman year of high school do have a large effect on your life path. Germany's system isn't perfect, but "egalitarianism" isn't a strong defense of the US system relative to Germany. If anything, the US system is worse. The idea that living in some particular part of the city might mean you actually can't get a gymnasium-level education is insane in Germany, but AP deserts are a de facto reality in large swaths of the US. At least in Germany it's explicit, people realize what's happening, it's at least somewhat merit-based, and your parent's ability to purchase expensive real estate doesn't play such a huge role.
coliveira 6y ago
The problem in the US (as opposed to Germany) is that the barrier is not ability, but money. Wealthy families will easily place their kids on some of the greatest universities, while a poor kid needs to be a genius to go to a place like Princeton, or else will have to enter into loads of debt to have a decent education at a state university.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- peterwoerner 6y ago
  I don't know... 9 years ago when I graduated from a tier II state university which was highly affordable[0]. Additionally it was locally known for creating the second best engineers in the region (after Georgia Tech), best nurses in the region, and has well respected education and agriculture programs. I leveraged my Tier II undergraduate into a tier I graduate school experience and am now a PI/lead at a large defense contractor. If you are smart,diligent and stay out of too much trouble, you can take advantage of the cheaper/smaller state schools for undergraduate and push yourself where you want to go. It's not Princeton or MIT but there is still plenty of affordable opportunity (especially in tech and engineering). Granted my college experience, didn't have the glamour of the division 1 football tailgates, or the excitement of a big city, but those things cost extra. [0] It was in a small town ~30,000, so local 3 bedroom apartment was $550/mo (split 3 was was ~190 a person), and tuition was about $4000 a semester. Currently tuition is $5000/semester and you can get $5000/year from the lottery scholarship.
  - throwaway6734 6y ago
    You did it right
blablabla123 6y ago
> Replacing universities with a netflix-esque experience may seem attractive to students, but is doomed to fail to train students To be honest, for very mathematical subjects the lectures are almost useless. Exercises and practicing is what gives insights, determines the grades and tells which part of the lecture is actually important. I'd be curious how it is in other subjects, like literature or history. But I assume without writing texts, one doesn't get very far there either.
- iguy 6y ago
  > lectures are almost useless. Exercises and practicing is what gives insights And community -- both the other students, and the professors. To motivate each other, and to calibrate expectations, and to fill holes in each others' knowledge. That seems like the big (academic) reason to be physically on campus, and ideally at a selective place. My impression is that the same would be true of (say) history, but I don't really know.
- Item_Boring 6y ago
  While I agree that exercises etc. are the way to deeply understand the subject I disagree with your take that math lectures are senseless. I admittedly always struggled when I skipped lectures and attending them helped me to see the “bigger connections” and actually understand proofs given I was taking notes throughout the lecture. In philosophy however - which for me this semester is entirely online without any video chat whatever interaction - the in person lectures were highly valuable to me due to their nature on heavily relying on discussion. While I do have a paper here and there to write my understanding mostly comes from attending the lectures.
- maxmunzel 6y ago
  I used to think this way, but learning how to take math lectures really changed my university experience. To my first semester me: 1. Go to the lectures, sit upfront (where you are definitely not going to use your phone or fall asleep) 2. Get the book or script that corresponds to your lecture. Almost all math lectures follow some sort of book. If unsure, ask your professor. Just reading ahead for half an hour prior to the lecture will make _such_ a difference, as you won’t be lost and can focus more on contexts than on definitions. 3. Feel free to ask questions. If you know where you are (see 2.) it’s much easier to know what’s wrong. Professors are human and sometimes forget to give some theorem they are using. It’s really easy (and frankly surreal at first) to be that guy that points out errors to the professor (in a respectful way!). If your shy or you have the feeling, that the problem is indeed on your end – take notes of things that are unclear and ask them after the lecture. Professors usually love to talk about their subject! 4. Last but not least: Keep calm and carry on. It’s completely normal to feel overwhelmed at first ;)

battery423 6y ago

University should still be open to everyone. Everyone should, independently from where they are and how rich they are, be able to study on an university if they are capable to do so. I believe that: 1. the entry barrier is not fair and designed for a very straight funnel you either fit through or not. 2. If you would open up an university even more and you don't allow anyone to missuse it (by sleeping at the university, playing games instead of listing, getting money while attending but not caring for it) it would not have any downsight but might allow one or other mind being part of it. I also have the feeling that people which were able to go through a bad university, already don't mind it anymore and don't care to optimize because it worked for them. We are not a poor soceity anymore and we have plenty of experience and technology. Its the duty of the university to try to help as many people as possible to learn the stuff you learn at the university. University is being paid by all people. Its also the reason why OpenAccess should be mandatory.

oneplane 6y ago
You can't cater to everyone, especially if what you serve is dependant on exiting skills, knowledge or levels of understanding. One would maybe argue that a university might fix that by making dumbed down versions of things or adding extra pre-learning options but at that point it just becomes a supermarket. If you try to cover everything and everyone you just end up being mediocre which is not the point of a university.
- battery423 6y ago
  I'm not saying you have to dumb things down etc. but i do say that the university today is not doing enough and this in direct connection to modern technology, internet and digital.

throwawaygh 6y ago

I really like the German higher education system. Unfortunately, the USA conflates universities and applied universities. Most people who go to university in the USA, go to what would be closer to a Fachhochschule. Smaller colleges and universities that don't grant PhDs and whose professors have research output is closer to "write a paper in the summer" than "run a research lab". Most people who have negative views toward their university experience in the USA, I think, feel that way because they thought they were going to a Fachhochschule but actually went to a university (or vice versa). I don't quite understand how the USA can look at our education system, look around the world, and then conclude that technology will be our salvation. No. Just build a system that works like the perfectly functional and affordable systems in much of Europe.

dpoochieni 6y ago
What not to love, they begin the class segregation early. Wait what? Guess they are that way after centuries of pretty authoritarian governments. Every one knows their place /s
- throwawaygh 6y ago
  The USA is just as bad, if not worse. The mechanisms are different but the effect is the same. If you don't take honors/AP courses throughout high school, then you're cut off from an entire world of possibilities. And if you are in the wrong ZIP code, you might not have access to those courses at all. Do you know what percentage of US high schools offer AP CS? The US segregates pretty heavily starting the last year of middle school / first year of high school. You can jump tracks, but it's hard (and the same is true in Germany btw). Some tracks aren't even available to poor (esp rural) folks. Wealth determines which tracks are available. Within the set of available tracks, teacher recommendations play a big role in which path a student is suggested to pursue. Biases exist, and people will often follow whatever path their parents followed. Although you can get into some college without honors/AP courses, those lower-tier colleges are typically closer to something like an applied university. With correspondingly similar differences in outcomes. So, in the USA, your ZIP code and teachers' decisions from freshman year of high school do have a large effect on your life path. Germany's system isn't perfect, but "egalitarianism" isn't a strong defense of the US system relative to Germany. If anything, the US system is worse. The idea that living in some particular part of the city might mean you actually can't get a gymnasium-level education is insane in Germany, but AP deserts are a de facto reality in large swaths of the US. At least in Germany it's explicit, people realize what's happening, it's at least somewhat merit-based, and your parent's ability to purchase expensive real estate doesn't play such a huge role.

coliveira 6y ago

The problem in the US (as opposed to Germany) is that the barrier is not ability, but money. Wealthy families will easily place their kids on some of the greatest universities, while a poor kid needs to be a genius to go to a place like Princeton, or else will have to enter into loads of debt to have a decent education at a state university.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
peterwoerner 6y ago
I don't know... 9 years ago when I graduated from a tier II state university which was highly affordable[0]. Additionally it was locally known for creating the second best engineers in the region (after Georgia Tech), best nurses in the region, and has well respected education and agriculture programs. I leveraged my Tier II undergraduate into a tier I graduate school experience and am now a PI/lead at a large defense contractor. If you are smart,diligent and stay out of too much trouble, you can take advantage of the cheaper/smaller state schools for undergraduate and push yourself where you want to go. It's not Princeton or MIT but there is still plenty of affordable opportunity (especially in tech and engineering). Granted my college experience, didn't have the glamour of the division 1 football tailgates, or the excitement of a big city, but those things cost extra. [0] It was in a small town ~30,000, so local 3 bedroom apartment was $550/mo (split 3 was was ~190 a person), and tuition was about $4000 a semester. Currently tuition is $5000/semester and you can get $5000/year from the lottery scholarship.
- throwaway6734 6y ago
  You did it right

blablabla123 6y ago

> Replacing universities with a netflix-esque experience may seem attractive to students, but is doomed to fail to train students To be honest, for very mathematical subjects the lectures are almost useless. Exercises and practicing is what gives insights, determines the grades and tells which part of the lecture is actually important. I'd be curious how it is in other subjects, like literature or history. But I assume without writing texts, one doesn't get very far there either.

iguy 6y ago
> lectures are almost useless. Exercises and practicing is what gives insights And community -- both the other students, and the professors. To motivate each other, and to calibrate expectations, and to fill holes in each others' knowledge. That seems like the big (academic) reason to be physically on campus, and ideally at a selective place. My impression is that the same would be true of (say) history, but I don't really know.
Item_Boring 6y ago
While I agree that exercises etc. are the way to deeply understand the subject I disagree with your take that math lectures are senseless. I admittedly always struggled when I skipped lectures and attending them helped me to see the “bigger connections” and actually understand proofs given I was taking notes throughout the lecture. In philosophy however - which for me this semester is entirely online without any video chat whatever interaction - the in person lectures were highly valuable to me due to their nature on heavily relying on discussion. While I do have a paper here and there to write my understanding mostly comes from attending the lectures.
maxmunzel 6y ago
I used to think this way, but learning how to take math lectures really changed my university experience. To my first semester me: 1. Go to the lectures, sit upfront (where you are definitely not going to use your phone or fall asleep) 2. Get the book or script that corresponds to your lecture. Almost all math lectures follow some sort of book. If unsure, ask your professor. Just reading ahead for half an hour prior to the lecture will make _such_ a difference, as you won’t be lost and can focus more on contexts than on definitions. 3. Feel free to ask questions. If you know where you are (see 2.) it’s much easier to know what’s wrong. Professors are human and sometimes forget to give some theorem they are using. It’s really easy (and frankly surreal at first) to be that guy that points out errors to the professor (in a respectful way!). If your shy or you have the feeling, that the problem is indeed on your end – take notes of things that are unclear and ask them after the lecture. Professors usually love to talk about their subject! 4. Last but not least: Keep calm and carry on. It’s completely normal to feel overwhelmed at first ;)