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> I think the markets have been completely messed up by stimulus since 2008 Maybe, but OTOH the stock market returns are actually no different from pre 2008 (S

> I think the markets have been completely messed up by stimulus since 2008 Maybe, but OTOH the stock market returns are actually no different from pre 2008 (S&P500 in this case): https://www.macrotrends.net/2526/sp-500-historical-annual-returns https://www.macrotrends.net/2526/sp-500-historical-annual-re...

fennecfoxen 6y ago
That's a symptom of the problem GP is alleging, though: of companies obtaining returns by mooching off the free capital provided at taxpayer expense to grow your market share at the expense of others... rather earning them them by doing hard work to build businesses that earn their profits, while paying the real costs that your unsubsidized competitors have to pay themselves. There's been real disruption since 2008. Stock market returns don't show it, and they should. The efficient allocation of society's capital depends on honesty and fairness here, and instead this gap is papered over by government intervention, meant first and foremost to prop up politicians' careers, in an unsustainable sham. It will go better for society if we are honest about it than if we wait for everything to collapse when we are truly put to a test and find there is nothing to our prosperity but a mirage.
_curious_ 6y ago
I concur with zpeti’s sentiment that “I think the markets have been completely messed up by stimulus since 2008, and it's only getting worse.” And as you, Qasaur, say: “this erroneous monetary policy will only stop if politicians and central bankers are willing to stomach a harsh market recalibration, but seeing as they seem to not be willing to do that judging from their recent actions so I fear that this systemic malinvestment and inequality will just get worse and worse until something breaks.” I think society has reached that breaking point and starting to show the cracks. Digging underneath the protests/riots/violence/standoffs in cities like Minneapolis or Seattle, as they have revealed, what you'll find is rooted in socioeconomics.

fennecfoxen 6y ago

That's a symptom of the problem GP is alleging, though: of companies obtaining returns by mooching off the free capital provided at taxpayer expense to grow your market share at the expense of others... rather earning them them by doing hard work to build businesses that earn their profits, while paying the real costs that your unsubsidized competitors have to pay themselves. There's been real disruption since 2008. Stock market returns don't show it, and they should. The efficient allocation of society's capital depends on honesty and fairness here, and instead this gap is papered over by government intervention, meant first and foremost to prop up politicians' careers, in an unsustainable sham. It will go better for society if we are honest about it than if we wait for everything to collapse when we are truly put to a test and find there is nothing to our prosperity but a mirage.

_curious_ 6y ago

I concur with zpeti’s sentiment that “I think the markets have been completely messed up by stimulus since 2008, and it's only getting worse.” And as you, Qasaur, say: “this erroneous monetary policy will only stop if politicians and central bankers are willing to stomach a harsh market recalibration, but seeing as they seem to not be willing to do that judging from their recent actions so I fear that this systemic malinvestment and inequality will just get worse and worse until something breaks.” I think society has reached that breaking point and starting to show the cracks. Digging underneath the protests/riots/violence/standoffs in cities like Minneapolis or Seattle, as they have revealed, what you'll find is rooted in socioeconomics.