6 ms·

Why you should re-read Paradise Lost (2017)

119 points by emptybits 6y ago

emptybits 6y ago
Many ways to read this epic poem. Besides flat text versions from Wikisource and Project Gutenberg, here's a PDF, typeset with 17th century inspiration: http://www.samizdat.qc.ca/arts/lit/paradiselost.pdf http://www.samizdat.qc.ca/arts/lit/paradiselost.pdf
- vortex_ape 6y ago
  Thanks for this PDF! I was confused to see the words "Paradife Loft" and thought that it was some issue with the PDF, which is not the case. TIL that ſ (long s) is an archaic form of the lower case letter s.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_s
  - DrewRWx 6y ago
    In media, ſ (long s) is often used to signify a heightened version of the American colonial and American Revolution periods. The latter-day Futurama episode "All the Presidents' Heads" uses it as joke a couple times when they time-warp during the American Revolution.
    - hombre_fatal 6y ago
      Is that actually an assertion that's true for media in general, or was it only true for that gag in Futurama?
      - tsm 6y ago
        I do a lot with 18th-century music and living history, where long esses are prevalent, and it's been a common point of confusion for students/the public that turns into a gag. I released a book of original music a few years ago[1] and people still call me a "compofer" [1] - https://github.com/tsmacdonald/first-collection/blob/master/cover.pdf https://github.com/tsmacdonald/first-collection/blob/master/...
- AdmiralAsshat 6y ago
  Don't forget EPUB/KEPUB/MOBI, for those of us with ereaders: https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/john-milton/paradise-lost https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/john-milton/paradise-lost
- maxgg 6y ago
  For historical flavor, though not necessarily reading ease, you might also enjoy the scans of the Boston Public Library copies of the (nearly) original, hosted on archive.org: https://archive.org/details/paradiselostpoem00milt_0/ https://archive.org/details/paradiselostpoem00milt_0/ https://archive.org/details/paradiselostpoem00milt_1/ https://archive.org/details/paradiselostpoem00milt_1/
zappo2938 6y ago
When I first read it I thought about how hell experienced all the forms of government in the Republic with democracy leading to tyranny. Then a few years ago I started to reread it and couldn't find the pattern as though I made it up all those years ago. It was just that I was so sure something was some way and in the end it was just a hallucination.
- unhammer 6y ago
  I most enjoyed the part where Satan, Moloc, Beelzebub and the rest of his fellowship discuss whether to retake Heaven and by what strategy, and they end up deciding that Satan alone shall sneak into Eden. I half expected him to say he'd throw his ring into the fire there :-) Blake was right though – the parts not about devils are quite forgettable.
lukeholder 6y ago
I had never read it, but just read the summary and couldn't believe the similarity to Mormonism's creation/fall story. Which led me to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlrPpbalG-g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlrPpbalG-g
- RNCTX 6y ago
  It is a much different read if you approach it with some prior knowledge of what it was intended to be. The preface plainly states that Milton wants to "justify the ways of god to men." The plot and structure are a direct knock-off of Homer's epic poems. Milton followed a regimen of writing that was old before he was born, in that first people would write lyrics and sonnets and then eventually hone their skills toward writing an epic. So there's not a whole lot of meat, for lack of a better word, in the structure of the poem itself. It is assumed that the reader knows their classics and identifies the references themselves. The clever parts are in the details. Milton's angels and demons have philosophical/political debates and conversations which invite the reader to consider hard questions and make conclusions of their own. Milton even considers the mathematical and philosophical questions of being in the poem, for example. Satan asks permission of the "throne of Chaos" to travel through his domain from Hell to Earth. Satan's plea to Chaos is that by creating his universe, god stole from him and he should help anyone who opposes that creation. So it is implied that Chaos is a force perhaps not comparable in status to the one god, but certainly above immortal beings like angels and demons, so perhaps Chaos and God are naturally opposed, entropy vs order, etc. And even this is ideologically and theologically consistent down to the detail. Satan doesn't really know how powerful Chaos is, but should he? Chaos is older and greater than any angel or demon, so it follows that angels and demons would not know exactly how powerful Chaos is, but would know that Chaos is greater than they are. Similarly, the battle scene in heaven between Satan's rebelling army and the angels loyal to God begins with all of them not really knowing whether they can be killed or not. They consider whether all of their fighting is for nothing, because they're immortal. This is another thing that, logically and philosophically, they would not know on their own because they didn't create themselves, after all. They were created, and thus are necessarily lesser than the creator who does know. "Justify the ways of god to men" to Milton was an attempt to "fix" Christian doctrine, to fill in the blanks and missing parts and make it all fit together without any contradictions or failures of reason. But here lie conclusions that are difficult to reason away: if Satan rebelled against God and God is all-knowing, why didn't God stop him? Is all of creation an experiment in free will (which makes everyone a pawn), or can God himself not kill one of his immortal angels? If the latter, is he not really God if there's something he cannot do? Was Jesus/The Son just a ruse to root out disloyalty among angels? And really all of these things get to "does the universe even matter or does whatever created it not care about it?" The whole thing is not just a religious text, although it is about a religious doctrine. It's a text meant to teach people how to think, so that they would overthrow their kings and noble rulers and rule themselves, just as Milton portrayed in his last writing (a rewrite of the story of Samson Agonistes).
RNCTX 6y ago
Paradise Lost was the highlight of my undergrad literature degree, by far. You won't get 10% of it reading it alone on the first time. There are so many little nuances and considerations and philosophical grey areas that someone could spend a lifetime on it and still have things left to do.
akkshu92 6y ago
If you haven't read it already and need help interpreting it, you can take this free course on edx. https://courses.edx.org/courses/course-v1:DartmouthX+DART.ENGL.02X+1T2018/c0e0d30dac4848c7a13a177fc0f46e40/ https://courses.edx.org/courses/course-v1:DartmouthX+DART.EN... I took this course to understand what the whole fuss around 'Paradise Lost' meant. I was utterly mind-blown, learning its snide references to free will, tyranny, slavery, civil liberty, etc. in the poem. What I once thought was a retelling of the Bible, surprised me with its political nuances.
- throwaway_7718 6y ago
  Thanks a heap for this! Coincidentally, there's a course on the Divine Comedy starting today (http://dante.georgetown.edu/ http://dante.georgetown.edu/).
  - akkshu92 6y ago
    Ah, nice! Let me check it out.
- hombre_fatal 6y ago
  Good courses/teachers change everything. I thought I hated literature and philosophy until I took a philosophy 101 course that I procrastinated until my final semester at UT. It was basically two professors (one was Dutch that was co-teaching the course until he would transition to be a stand-alone professor) and a class of 12 students at a university where I was used to intro courses in 200-student lecture halls. The enthusiasm of the professors was contagious. And they turned text that would have been boring / misunderstood if read on my own into lines that were couched in all sorts of humor and greater commentary about the world, and I was hooked. They taught me how to enjoy literature that otherwise would have seemed totally dull and dry and it was a real gift. Over a decade later, I was at a bar and somehow Plato's Gorgias came up with a stranger and we both half-jokingly agreed that Callicles was right about the world. And I thought about how thankful I was for that philosophy class once again.
  - akkshu92 6y ago
dotsam 6y ago
The audiobook read by Anton Lesser is worth listening to.
ivanmilles 6y ago
A recommendation to the Dutch "precursor" to Paradise Lost: Vondel's "Lucifer" is a tight five-act play along the same lines. It's about a century older than Paradise Lost, with a contemporary energy that's quite fun and punchy, and a quick read. Noel Clark's translation gives it a modern air of office politics as Lucifer and Beelzebub quarrel with Gabriel on how to behave in their shared workplace.
- markhollis 6y ago
  I can confirm. Reading Lucifer was one of the highlights in high school of my Dutch class.
- toyg 6y ago
  And of course there is Dante's Divine Comedy, which started the whole thing in 1300...
- dhosek 6y ago
  There's a bit of OT apocrypha that's a likely source of inspiration for Paradise Regained, Milton's sequel to Paradise Lost. I believe it was the Book of Adam (or something similarly titled). A quick Google search doesn't turn up anything likely and the I lent the volume I had which included this apocryphon to my brother who subsequently lost it at some point later, so I only have 20+ year old memories of the book. There's a long tradition of retellings and expansions of Biblical stories in both Christianity and Judaism that also contributed a great deal to Paradise Lost.
  - aspenmayer 6y ago
    Do you recall the title which contained the aforementioned apocryphal text?
    - dhosek 6y ago
      Forgotten Books of Eden. Apparently it's less obscure than I thought, which gave me a Wikipedia article with the contents. The text was the First and Second Book of Adam and Eve aka Conflict of Adam and Eve with Satan. Wikipedia article here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_of_Adam_and_Eve_with_Satan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_of_Adam_and_Eve_with_...
bookofjoe 6y ago
My first (and only) reading of it was in high school. Too soon.
- ThinkingGuy 6y ago
  My high school English teacher explicitly advised us to wait until we were "really old" to read Milton.
  - bookofjoe 6y ago
    Is 72 old enough?
pseudolus 6y ago
Blake's illustrations for Paradise Lost can be found on Wikipedia [0]. They're incredibly fine works of illustration that a web browser can't do justice to. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Blake%27s_illustrations_of_Paradise_Lost https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Blake%27s_illustration...
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Der_Einzige 6y ago
Paradise Lost is extremely poorly written religious fan-fiction. The first 4 chapters which describe how Lucifer became lucifer are actually sort of interesting, and then the most boring, wordy, and repetitive of narratives are told for the next 15? Chapters I'd rather reread such (by comparison) brief works like "A tale of two cities" because literally any other work was far less wordy and far more interesting. Paradise Lost is the only book I've ever just put down and refused to finish for a "honors" English class in senior year. If you are forced to read this crap for a class - just find the sparknotes and read something more comprehensible in the mean time.
- tanseydavid 6y ago
  Comparing an Epic Poem to a Novel seems like an apples to oranges comparison -- both fruit yet quite different from each other. Calling it "crap" and "extremely poorly written religious fan-fiction" is pretty bold (but also shallow). Serious question: "why do you suppose it is that 'crap' like this manages to survive on for a couple of hundred years?
- DarlesChickens 6y ago
  Good to have a counaussseur around here. Fuck these other dogs dog. Dog shit up. Upvoted. Mr Fucking Reality. Fuck these 'literary' critics. It's all a scam anyway. Vote shit up. Vote this fucker up cocksucers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

119 points by emptybits 6y ago

Many ways to read this epic poem. Besides flat text versions from Wikisource and Project Gutenberg, here's a PDF, typeset with 17th century inspiration: http://www.samizdat.qc.ca/arts/lit/paradiselost.pdf http://www.samizdat.qc.ca/arts/lit/paradiselost.pdf

vortex_ape 6y ago
Thanks for this PDF! I was confused to see the words "Paradife Loft" and thought that it was some issue with the PDF, which is not the case. TIL that ſ (long s) is an archaic form of the lower case letter s.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_s
- DrewRWx 6y ago
  In media, ſ (long s) is often used to signify a heightened version of the American colonial and American Revolution periods. The latter-day Futurama episode "All the Presidents' Heads" uses it as joke a couple times when they time-warp during the American Revolution.
  - hombre_fatal 6y ago
    Is that actually an assertion that's true for media in general, or was it only true for that gag in Futurama?
    - tsm 6y ago
      I do a lot with 18th-century music and living history, where long esses are prevalent, and it's been a common point of confusion for students/the public that turns into a gag. I released a book of original music a few years ago[1] and people still call me a "compofer" [1] - https://github.com/tsmacdonald/first-collection/blob/master/cover.pdf https://github.com/tsmacdonald/first-collection/blob/master/...
AdmiralAsshat 6y ago
Don't forget EPUB/KEPUB/MOBI, for those of us with ereaders: https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/john-milton/paradise-lost https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/john-milton/paradise-lost
maxgg 6y ago
For historical flavor, though not necessarily reading ease, you might also enjoy the scans of the Boston Public Library copies of the (nearly) original, hosted on archive.org: https://archive.org/details/paradiselostpoem00milt_0/ https://archive.org/details/paradiselostpoem00milt_0/ https://archive.org/details/paradiselostpoem00milt_1/ https://archive.org/details/paradiselostpoem00milt_1/

zappo2938 6y ago

When I first read it I thought about how hell experienced all the forms of government in the Republic with democracy leading to tyranny. Then a few years ago I started to reread it and couldn't find the pattern as though I made it up all those years ago. It was just that I was so sure something was some way and in the end it was just a hallucination.

unhammer 6y ago
I most enjoyed the part where Satan, Moloc, Beelzebub and the rest of his fellowship discuss whether to retake Heaven and by what strategy, and they end up deciding that Satan alone shall sneak into Eden. I half expected him to say he'd throw his ring into the fire there :-) Blake was right though – the parts not about devils are quite forgettable.

lukeholder 6y ago

I had never read it, but just read the summary and couldn't believe the similarity to Mormonism's creation/fall story. Which led me to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlrPpbalG-g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlrPpbalG-g

RNCTX 6y ago
It is a much different read if you approach it with some prior knowledge of what it was intended to be. The preface plainly states that Milton wants to "justify the ways of god to men." The plot and structure are a direct knock-off of Homer's epic poems. Milton followed a regimen of writing that was old before he was born, in that first people would write lyrics and sonnets and then eventually hone their skills toward writing an epic. So there's not a whole lot of meat, for lack of a better word, in the structure of the poem itself. It is assumed that the reader knows their classics and identifies the references themselves. The clever parts are in the details. Milton's angels and demons have philosophical/political debates and conversations which invite the reader to consider hard questions and make conclusions of their own. Milton even considers the mathematical and philosophical questions of being in the poem, for example. Satan asks permission of the "throne of Chaos" to travel through his domain from Hell to Earth. Satan's plea to Chaos is that by creating his universe, god stole from him and he should help anyone who opposes that creation. So it is implied that Chaos is a force perhaps not comparable in status to the one god, but certainly above immortal beings like angels and demons, so perhaps Chaos and God are naturally opposed, entropy vs order, etc. And even this is ideologically and theologically consistent down to the detail. Satan doesn't really know how powerful Chaos is, but should he? Chaos is older and greater than any angel or demon, so it follows that angels and demons would not know exactly how powerful Chaos is, but would know that Chaos is greater than they are. Similarly, the battle scene in heaven between Satan's rebelling army and the angels loyal to God begins with all of them not really knowing whether they can be killed or not. They consider whether all of their fighting is for nothing, because they're immortal. This is another thing that, logically and philosophically, they would not know on their own because they didn't create themselves, after all. They were created, and thus are necessarily lesser than the creator who does know. "Justify the ways of god to men" to Milton was an attempt to "fix" Christian doctrine, to fill in the blanks and missing parts and make it all fit together without any contradictions or failures of reason. But here lie conclusions that are difficult to reason away: if Satan rebelled against God and God is all-knowing, why didn't God stop him? Is all of creation an experiment in free will (which makes everyone a pawn), or can God himself not kill one of his immortal angels? If the latter, is he not really God if there's something he cannot do? Was Jesus/The Son just a ruse to root out disloyalty among angels? And really all of these things get to "does the universe even matter or does whatever created it not care about it?" The whole thing is not just a religious text, although it is about a religious doctrine. It's a text meant to teach people how to think, so that they would overthrow their kings and noble rulers and rule themselves, just as Milton portrayed in his last writing (a rewrite of the story of Samson Agonistes).

RNCTX 6y ago

Paradise Lost was the highlight of my undergrad literature degree, by far. You won't get 10% of it reading it alone on the first time. There are so many little nuances and considerations and philosophical grey areas that someone could spend a lifetime on it and still have things left to do.

akkshu92 6y ago

If you haven't read it already and need help interpreting it, you can take this free course on edx. https://courses.edx.org/courses/course-v1:DartmouthX+DART.ENGL.02X+1T2018/c0e0d30dac4848c7a13a177fc0f46e40/ https://courses.edx.org/courses/course-v1:DartmouthX+DART.EN... I took this course to understand what the whole fuss around 'Paradise Lost' meant. I was utterly mind-blown, learning its snide references to free will, tyranny, slavery, civil liberty, etc. in the poem. What I once thought was a retelling of the Bible, surprised me with its political nuances.

throwaway_7718 6y ago
Thanks a heap for this! Coincidentally, there's a course on the Divine Comedy starting today (http://dante.georgetown.edu/ http://dante.georgetown.edu/).
- akkshu92 6y ago
  Ah, nice! Let me check it out.
hombre_fatal 6y ago
Good courses/teachers change everything. I thought I hated literature and philosophy until I took a philosophy 101 course that I procrastinated until my final semester at UT. It was basically two professors (one was Dutch that was co-teaching the course until he would transition to be a stand-alone professor) and a class of 12 students at a university where I was used to intro courses in 200-student lecture halls. The enthusiasm of the professors was contagious. And they turned text that would have been boring / misunderstood if read on my own into lines that were couched in all sorts of humor and greater commentary about the world, and I was hooked. They taught me how to enjoy literature that otherwise would have seemed totally dull and dry and it was a real gift. Over a decade later, I was at a bar and somehow Plato's Gorgias came up with a stranger and we both half-jokingly agreed that Callicles was right about the world. And I thought about how thankful I was for that philosophy class once again.
- akkshu92 6y ago

dotsam 6y ago

The audiobook read by Anton Lesser is worth listening to.

ivanmilles 6y ago

A recommendation to the Dutch "precursor" to Paradise Lost: Vondel's "Lucifer" is a tight five-act play along the same lines. It's about a century older than Paradise Lost, with a contemporary energy that's quite fun and punchy, and a quick read. Noel Clark's translation gives it a modern air of office politics as Lucifer and Beelzebub quarrel with Gabriel on how to behave in their shared workplace.

markhollis 6y ago
I can confirm. Reading Lucifer was one of the highlights in high school of my Dutch class.
toyg 6y ago
And of course there is Dante's Divine Comedy, which started the whole thing in 1300...
dhosek 6y ago
There's a bit of OT apocrypha that's a likely source of inspiration for Paradise Regained, Milton's sequel to Paradise Lost. I believe it was the Book of Adam (or something similarly titled). A quick Google search doesn't turn up anything likely and the I lent the volume I had which included this apocryphon to my brother who subsequently lost it at some point later, so I only have 20+ year old memories of the book. There's a long tradition of retellings and expansions of Biblical stories in both Christianity and Judaism that also contributed a great deal to Paradise Lost.
- aspenmayer 6y ago
  Do you recall the title which contained the aforementioned apocryphal text?
  - dhosek 6y ago
    Forgotten Books of Eden. Apparently it's less obscure than I thought, which gave me a Wikipedia article with the contents. The text was the First and Second Book of Adam and Eve aka Conflict of Adam and Eve with Satan. Wikipedia article here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_of_Adam_and_Eve_with_Satan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_of_Adam_and_Eve_with_...

bookofjoe 6y ago

My first (and only) reading of it was in high school. Too soon.

ThinkingGuy 6y ago
My high school English teacher explicitly advised us to wait until we were "really old" to read Milton.
- bookofjoe 6y ago
  Is 72 old enough?

pseudolus 6y ago

Blake's illustrations for Paradise Lost can be found on Wikipedia [0]. They're incredibly fine works of illustration that a web browser can't do justice to. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Blake%27s_illustrations_of_Paradise_Lost https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Blake%27s_illustration...

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

Der_Einzige 6y ago

Paradise Lost is extremely poorly written religious fan-fiction. The first 4 chapters which describe how Lucifer became lucifer are actually sort of interesting, and then the most boring, wordy, and repetitive of narratives are told for the next 15? Chapters I'd rather reread such (by comparison) brief works like "A tale of two cities" because literally any other work was far less wordy and far more interesting. Paradise Lost is the only book I've ever just put down and refused to finish for a "honors" English class in senior year. If you are forced to read this crap for a class - just find the sparknotes and read something more comprehensible in the mean time.

tanseydavid 6y ago
Comparing an Epic Poem to a Novel seems like an apples to oranges comparison -- both fruit yet quite different from each other. Calling it "crap" and "extremely poorly written religious fan-fiction" is pretty bold (but also shallow). Serious question: "why do you suppose it is that 'crap' like this manages to survive on for a couple of hundred years?
DarlesChickens 6y ago
Good to have a counaussseur around here. Fuck these other dogs dog. Dog shit up. Upvoted. Mr Fucking Reality. Fuck these 'literary' critics. It's all a scam anyway. Vote shit up. Vote this fucker up cocksucers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1