7 ms·

Coronavirus protective immunity is short-lasting [pdf]

38 points by metafunctor 6y ago

_wldu 6y ago
T cells also play a big part in long term immunity. https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/05/t-cells-found-covid-19-patients-bode-well-long-term-immunity https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/05/t-cells-found-covid-...
quicklime 6y ago
It might be worth pointing out that this study is about coronaviruses in general, not the coronavirus that causes COVID-19 (SARS-CoV-2).
- asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago
  Also worth noting that strain is not controlled for in this study. The study acknowledges at the end that reinfection may be by different strains. Under the same parameters as this study it could be said that flu infection doesn't confer immunity. But, it does, just there are a lot of distinct strains of flu.
lbeltrame 6y ago
Notice that this is for common coronaviruses, and doesn't mention SARS or MERS much: IIRC, the former elicited an IgG response years after exposure in an experiment. As far as I can tell, this preprint does not cite that work.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  Indeed -- studies of SARS have something different to say. Here's one study that shows duration of antibody response to SARS is at least 3 years [1]. Here's a study that shows T cell response for at least 6 years [2]. MERS had a much, much higher fatality rate (~35%) and infected a small handful of people (~2500) so it's harder to get meaningful data. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2851497/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2851497/ [2] https://www.jimmunol.org/content/186/12/7264.short https://www.jimmunol.org/content/186/12/7264.short
  - tim333 6y ago
    And more: >Two findings emerge: first, the T cells generated back then are still active 17 years on. And second, those old T cells offer protection against the new coronavirus. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/body/no-antibodies-could-still-have-had-covid-fighting-t-cells/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/body/no-antibodie...
zackees 6y ago
Just in time to reinforce the mail in balloting narrative.
Grimm1 6y ago
We already knew this about the general family of coronaviruses, but MERS and SARS both generated longer immune responses. I imagine we're starting to look at people who had severe cases in March, and survived to see if their immune responses are still holding up 3-4ish months after and will be doing so for the months to come.
pritovido 6y ago
This is for common coronavirus but something very important must be remembered: The reinfection is not the same. The first time you face a new virus, you don't have antibodies. You also have no information to generate them. Generating this information takes a long time, which is dangerous. If you reinfect again after 12 months, you don't have antibodies, but there are cells that contain the information to regenerate the antibodies much faster than the first time you faced the virus. So reinfection is not as dangerous as the first time.
- war1025 6y ago
  > The reinfection is not the same As a parent of young kids who manages to catch the stomach flu at least once a year from them, this is something I've come to appreciate a ton. The first time we caught it after neither me nor my wife having caught such a thing for over a decade, it knocked us out for two days. Just completely miserable. Now, four years and half a dozen rounds later, it's still terrible, but only lasts twelve hours or so. Gotta love the immune system.
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  Sometimes that can backfire, and infection can trigger a deleterious immune response, or a severe reaction upon reinfection.
m0zg 6y ago
Is anyone else worried that there won't actually be a usable vaccine for C19? After all, we don't have a vaccine for any other coronavirus. What makes people think we'll have it for this one, let alone "within a year"?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- slavapestov 6y ago
  We don't have a vaccine for any other coronavirus because it's not really worth it; most people with the common cold coronaviruses only have mild symptoms. A SARS 1.0 vaccine was in development at one point, but they stopped because the virus was eradicated.
  - graeme 6y ago
    Also worth noting that coronaviruses only cause a portion of common colds. So it would maybe be 4-8 vaccines a year to stop perhaps 20% of common colds. I hate colds, so I might do that, but it would hardly be a best seller.
  - catalogia 6y ago
    > most people with the common cold coronaviruses only have mild symptoms. Couldn't the same be said for the common flu? Most people shrug off influenza, but they develop a new vaccine for that something like twice a year (the efficacy of which isn't great.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza_vaccine#Effectiveness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza_vaccine#Effectivenes...)
    - lbeltrame 6y ago
      The efficacy of the influenza vaccine has a lot to do with the influenza virus genome, which is fairly different than coronaviruses, and due to that mutates far quicker.
      - 6y ago
gojomo 6y ago
Mild reinfection without symptoms (& in all likelihood, decreased shedding) is functionally nearly the same as actual "immunity". In a dynamic long-term analysis, such mild reinfections might even be for-the-best: it refreshes your immune response, and those around you in a similar situation, as if the virus itself had been turned into a naturally-circulating seasonal "booster shot". What if the other four known 'common cold' coronaviruses were all just as challenging as Covid-19 when they emerged... but nowadays, everyone gets them 1st when young – & their immune system most able to adapt – thus rendering them relatively mild, or even undetectable, on all subsequent re-exposures over an entire lifetime?
stevespang 6y ago
Correct link is: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.11.20086439v2 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.11.20086439v...

38 points by metafunctor 6y ago

T cells also play a big part in long term immunity. https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/05/t-cells-found-covid-19-patients-bode-well-long-term-immunity https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/05/t-cells-found-covid-...

quicklime 6y ago

It might be worth pointing out that this study is about coronaviruses in general, not the coronavirus that causes COVID-19 (SARS-CoV-2).

asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago
Also worth noting that strain is not controlled for in this study. The study acknowledges at the end that reinfection may be by different strains. Under the same parameters as this study it could be said that flu infection doesn't confer immunity. But, it does, just there are a lot of distinct strains of flu.

lbeltrame 6y ago

Notice that this is for common coronaviruses, and doesn't mention SARS or MERS much: IIRC, the former elicited an IgG response years after exposure in an experiment. As far as I can tell, this preprint does not cite that work.

arcticbull 6y ago
Indeed -- studies of SARS have something different to say. Here's one study that shows duration of antibody response to SARS is at least 3 years [1]. Here's a study that shows T cell response for at least 6 years [2]. MERS had a much, much higher fatality rate (~35%) and infected a small handful of people (~2500) so it's harder to get meaningful data. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2851497/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2851497/ [2] https://www.jimmunol.org/content/186/12/7264.short https://www.jimmunol.org/content/186/12/7264.short
- tim333 6y ago
  And more: >Two findings emerge: first, the T cells generated back then are still active 17 years on. And second, those old T cells offer protection against the new coronavirus. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/body/no-antibodies-could-still-have-had-covid-fighting-t-cells/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/body/no-antibodie...

zackees 6y ago

Just in time to reinforce the mail in balloting narrative.

Grimm1 6y ago

We already knew this about the general family of coronaviruses, but MERS and SARS both generated longer immune responses. I imagine we're starting to look at people who had severe cases in March, and survived to see if their immune responses are still holding up 3-4ish months after and will be doing so for the months to come.

pritovido 6y ago

This is for common coronavirus but something very important must be remembered: The reinfection is not the same. The first time you face a new virus, you don't have antibodies. You also have no information to generate them. Generating this information takes a long time, which is dangerous. If you reinfect again after 12 months, you don't have antibodies, but there are cells that contain the information to regenerate the antibodies much faster than the first time you faced the virus. So reinfection is not as dangerous as the first time.

war1025 6y ago
> The reinfection is not the same As a parent of young kids who manages to catch the stomach flu at least once a year from them, this is something I've come to appreciate a ton. The first time we caught it after neither me nor my wife having caught such a thing for over a decade, it knocked us out for two days. Just completely miserable. Now, four years and half a dozen rounds later, it's still terrible, but only lasts twelve hours or so. Gotta love the immune system.
heavyset_go 6y ago
Sometimes that can backfire, and infection can trigger a deleterious immune response, or a severe reaction upon reinfection.

m0zg 6y ago

Is anyone else worried that there won't actually be a usable vaccine for C19? After all, we don't have a vaccine for any other coronavirus. What makes people think we'll have it for this one, let alone "within a year"?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
slavapestov 6y ago
We don't have a vaccine for any other coronavirus because it's not really worth it; most people with the common cold coronaviruses only have mild symptoms. A SARS 1.0 vaccine was in development at one point, but they stopped because the virus was eradicated.
- graeme 6y ago
  Also worth noting that coronaviruses only cause a portion of common colds. So it would maybe be 4-8 vaccines a year to stop perhaps 20% of common colds. I hate colds, so I might do that, but it would hardly be a best seller.
- catalogia 6y ago
  > most people with the common cold coronaviruses only have mild symptoms. Couldn't the same be said for the common flu? Most people shrug off influenza, but they develop a new vaccine for that something like twice a year (the efficacy of which isn't great.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza_vaccine#Effectiveness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza_vaccine#Effectivenes...)
  - lbeltrame 6y ago
    The efficacy of the influenza vaccine has a lot to do with the influenza virus genome, which is fairly different than coronaviruses, and due to that mutates far quicker.
    - 6y ago

gojomo 6y ago

Mild reinfection without symptoms (& in all likelihood, decreased shedding) is functionally nearly the same as actual "immunity". In a dynamic long-term analysis, such mild reinfections might even be for-the-best: it refreshes your immune response, and those around you in a similar situation, as if the virus itself had been turned into a naturally-circulating seasonal "booster shot". What if the other four known 'common cold' coronaviruses were all just as challenging as Covid-19 when they emerged... but nowadays, everyone gets them 1st when young – & their immune system most able to adapt – thus rendering them relatively mild, or even undetectable, on all subsequent re-exposures over an entire lifetime?

stevespang 6y ago

Correct link is: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.11.20086439v2 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.11.20086439v...