3 ms·

The term was being used in a context that was descriptive and not pejorative. It denotes a class distinction that has a suitcase full of cultural affectations a

The term was being used in a context that was descriptive and not pejorative. It denotes a class distinction that has a suitcase full of cultural affectations associated with it. It does not imply racism or inherent inferiority, just a certain type of identifiable poverty found in parts of the US. I refer to my own background as "poor white trash". It is accurate and descriptive, not offensive. This doesn't stop people, invariably not from that sociocultural milieu, from getting offended on my behalf when I use that term to describe myself. The pejorative use is assertion of class determinism i.e. "you can take the boy out of the trailer park but you can't take the trailer park out of the boy". That's actually offensive, but I didn't see that here.

082349872349872 6y ago
That someone given a tria nomina uses "poor white trash" indicates my experience (over half a decade living + later business) and my father-in-law's experience (business trips, some of which may have been during actual Segregation) in the south may well be outdated. With that in mind, please allow me to also be descriptive, of how things were in the Tidewater South, 40-60 years ago. I am going to write about class, and race, which the south of my time admitted[1] existed as social constructs. I hope you all appreciate that I am attempting to keep in mind EWD's "How do we tell truths that might hurt?" as well as Dr. Mike's "Regret, by definition, comes too late / Say what you mean. Bear witness. Iterate." "Poor white" was ethnic, but not a slur. It was in fact a positive term. Poor whites were good people, who happened to not be part of one's social group because they lacked the means. Poor whites were no longer poor whites if they came into money. (I suspect JAR's family would have been poor whites under this system, not "poor white trash") "White trash" was ethnic, and a slur, but not an ethnic slur. White trash was no better than they should have been. They were not part of one's social group because even if they had means, they lacked manners and education. Trash could easily be richer[2] than the people in one's own circle. White trash was not an ethnic slur because although they couldn't change the 'white' part, they could always change the 'trash': not everyone could afford an education, but anyone can have manners[3]. Trash who got their shit together[4] could eventually become unmarked, but because of the positive nature of "poor white" were unlikely to become the latter, even if they lacked money. In the time and place I experienced, "poor white trash" would have been an oxymoron[5]. Now I move from factual description (not prescription) to hypothetical, attempting to apply this construct to events of our times. What was important to white trash of the time is that even though they were on the lowest rung of the social scale, they were still "free, white, and 21" meaning that a separate social scale existed below them. If one removes 'white' from the equation, then white trash would be just trash[6]. I note that Minneapolis is well north of the Mason-Dixon line. Cops are not well paid in the US, meaning they are unlikely to be drawn from educated social classes[7]. However, even though they are in a society where respect is deeply tied to salary, they do still have people beneath them: "thugs". [1] Marivanna asks class to name word starting with letter 'A'. Vovochka quickly raises hand, calling out "ass!" Marivanna sternly tells him "for shame, there's no such word!" Vovochka feels back pockets, thinking how odd it is that everyone has one, yet it does not have name. [2] compare Dolphus Raymond, who uses this to his advantage. His town would not accept a rich n%%%%%-l%%%% (in modern terms, a w%%%%%?), but they would accept a trash alcoholic whose failure to segregate could be expected. If you haven't read "To Kill a Mockingbird", Calpurnia's advice on code-switching is an interesting excerpt. [3] "my mama always said stupid is as stupid does" Not everyone sacrifices as much for their childrens' education as Mrs. Gump. [4] and put it in a backpack. [5] note that Dolly doesn't refer to herself as "poor white trash". She is proud to be "white trash" because she is not now, nor ever has been, a sorority bow head. [6] See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23592167 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23592167 on "sin eaters." My wife watches talent shows from the States, and asks me "why do americans always have to be proud? they're always saying 'I'm proud of you'", for which I have no good answer beyond culture. Taking away someone's pride and expecting them to listen reflectively to what one has to say is unlikely to be effective. [7] as to manners: cops here are respectful, and view their primary focus as education, not enforcement. I see that traffic cops in the RF (as they did in the USSR) even salute the people they pull over, which (if it means anything beyond hoping for cabbage) is a nice gesture. One of my favourite russian memes is a traffic cop in a Santa outfit, with the caption being "Not only do you have to pay the ticket, but you'll have to recite a poem as well."
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  More evidence that my circles were circumscribed, "poor white trash" used in 1860: https://docsouth.unc.edu/southlit/hundley/hundley.html#hund250 https://docsouth.unc.edu/southlit/hundley/hundley.html#hund2... The author was more erudite than the current 140-character expounders of his beliefs, but these beliefs haven't altered much over the generations: poor people come from poor stock, our poor are better off than europe's poor, cities are the root of unrest, if you let people go after slavers they will go after capitalists next (massachusetts being the home of socialists and communists), etc. If Hundley was distasteful, Isenberg has more modern sensibilities: https://bookclubbabble.com/white-trash-vs-the-american-dream-dr-nancy-isenberg-plays-moderator/ https://bookclubbabble.com/white-trash-vs-the-american-dream... (To tie back to more usual HN'ish fare: the textile mills mentioned in the comment on that page were outcompeting the textile mills in Boston due to nonunion labour. Eventually the loss of the textile industry to the south would provide cheap office space for DEC.)
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    It wouldn't happen for another century, but Hundley predicted the textile move: "Even discarding slave labor altogether, the Poor Whites alone of the South, to say nothing of the Yeomen, are numerous enough to work more spindles than are in the whole of New-England at present."

082349872349872 6y ago

That someone given a tria nomina uses "poor white trash" indicates my experience (over half a decade living + later business) and my father-in-law's experience (business trips, some of which may have been during actual Segregation) in the south may well be outdated. With that in mind, please allow me to also be descriptive, of how things were in the Tidewater South, 40-60 years ago. I am going to write about class, and race, which the south of my time admitted[1] existed as social constructs. I hope you all appreciate that I am attempting to keep in mind EWD's "How do we tell truths that might hurt?" as well as Dr. Mike's "Regret, by definition, comes too late / Say what you mean. Bear witness. Iterate." "Poor white" was ethnic, but not a slur. It was in fact a positive term. Poor whites were good people, who happened to not be part of one's social group because they lacked the means. Poor whites were no longer poor whites if they came into money. (I suspect JAR's family would have been poor whites under this system, not "poor white trash") "White trash" was ethnic, and a slur, but not an ethnic slur. White trash was no better than they should have been. They were not part of one's social group because even if they had means, they lacked manners and education. Trash could easily be richer[2] than the people in one's own circle. White trash was not an ethnic slur because although they couldn't change the 'white' part, they could always change the 'trash': not everyone could afford an education, but anyone can have manners[3]. Trash who got their shit together[4] could eventually become unmarked, but because of the positive nature of "poor white" were unlikely to become the latter, even if they lacked money. In the time and place I experienced, "poor white trash" would have been an oxymoron[5]. Now I move from factual description (not prescription) to hypothetical, attempting to apply this construct to events of our times. What was important to white trash of the time is that even though they were on the lowest rung of the social scale, they were still "free, white, and 21" meaning that a separate social scale existed below them. If one removes 'white' from the equation, then white trash would be just trash[6]. I note that Minneapolis is well north of the Mason-Dixon line. Cops are not well paid in the US, meaning they are unlikely to be drawn from educated social classes[7]. However, even though they are in a society where respect is deeply tied to salary, they do still have people beneath them: "thugs". [1] Marivanna asks class to name word starting with letter 'A'. Vovochka quickly raises hand, calling out "ass!" Marivanna sternly tells him "for shame, there's no such word!" Vovochka feels back pockets, thinking how odd it is that everyone has one, yet it does not have name. [2] compare Dolphus Raymond, who uses this to his advantage. His town would not accept a rich n%%%%%-l%%%% (in modern terms, a w%%%%%?), but they would accept a trash alcoholic whose failure to segregate could be expected. If you haven't read "To Kill a Mockingbird", Calpurnia's advice on code-switching is an interesting excerpt. [3] "my mama always said stupid is as stupid does" Not everyone sacrifices as much for their childrens' education as Mrs. Gump. [4] and put it in a backpack. [5] note that Dolly doesn't refer to herself as "poor white trash". She is proud to be "white trash" because she is not now, nor ever has been, a sorority bow head. [6] See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23592167 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23592167 on "sin eaters." My wife watches talent shows from the States, and asks me "why do americans always have to be proud? they're always saying 'I'm proud of you'", for which I have no good answer beyond culture. Taking away someone's pride and expecting them to listen reflectively to what one has to say is unlikely to be effective. [7] as to manners: cops here are respectful, and view their primary focus as education, not enforcement. I see that traffic cops in the RF (as they did in the USSR) even salute the people they pull over, which (if it means anything beyond hoping for cabbage) is a nice gesture. One of my favourite russian memes is a traffic cop in a Santa outfit, with the caption being "Not only do you have to pay the ticket, but you'll have to recite a poem as well."

082349872349872 6y ago
More evidence that my circles were circumscribed, "poor white trash" used in 1860: https://docsouth.unc.edu/southlit/hundley/hundley.html#hund250 https://docsouth.unc.edu/southlit/hundley/hundley.html#hund2... The author was more erudite than the current 140-character expounders of his beliefs, but these beliefs haven't altered much over the generations: poor people come from poor stock, our poor are better off than europe's poor, cities are the root of unrest, if you let people go after slavers they will go after capitalists next (massachusetts being the home of socialists and communists), etc. If Hundley was distasteful, Isenberg has more modern sensibilities: https://bookclubbabble.com/white-trash-vs-the-american-dream-dr-nancy-isenberg-plays-moderator/ https://bookclubbabble.com/white-trash-vs-the-american-dream... (To tie back to more usual HN'ish fare: the textile mills mentioned in the comment on that page were outcompeting the textile mills in Boston due to nonunion labour. Eventually the loss of the textile industry to the south would provide cheap office space for DEC.)
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  It wouldn't happen for another century, but Hundley predicted the textile move: "Even discarding slave labor altogether, the Poor Whites alone of the South, to say nothing of the Yeomen, are numerous enough to work more spindles than are in the whole of New-England at present."