4 ms·

I find that in modern times, people have no idea how much nature is out to kill them. Nature does not give a shit about you. Just because something is a nation

I find that in modern times, people have no idea how much nature is out to kill them. Nature does not give a shit about you. Just because something is a national park does not mean its Disney Land. I've driven through Death Valley, never hiked (though i wish to do so some day), and I would not wish to deviate from known roads ever. Its a flat huge stupidly hot desert. If you get lost, welp. Even the main road gets extremely dodgy at a few/many places. Though if you're lucky you'll find the green patch somewhere in there (a damn golf course in the middle of the desert)

ghaff 6y ago
They were actually on a "known road." It's on the map. The problem is that what constitutes a "road" on a map in Death Valley (and many areas in the US West) may not look much like the sort of road many people in more built-up areas expect. See also the assumptions the German tourists apparently made about China Lake. Added: In general, once you get beyond paved roads, maps don't necessarily reliably distinguish between dirt road that's usually well-graded and maintained and "LOL. You'd better have a high clearance 4WD--not a crossover wannabe--and know how to drive it."
- NikolaeVarius 6y ago
  Well yes, but their fate was sealed when they accidentally went off road. I preface "known" with, "the most obviously correct road for current conditions" The people in the article already were going down roads that were not obviously compatible with their vehicle before they got lost.
  - ghaff 6y ago
    Fair enough. I have been on roads in that area of the country where at some point I went "Nope. I have neither the skills nor the vehicle for this" and turned around. (With very considerable difficulty in one case I remember.) It appears in this case that the family probably felt very pressed for time so they kept on. Which is the sort of thing that often factors into events like this.
    - rconti 6y ago
      The "very considerable difficulty" part is key, as I'm sure you realize. So often as roads get worse, we feel lucky we made it past that obstacle "that one time" and can only imagine it gets better if you press on, because you're not sure you can make it back the way you came. Related, the Death Valley Camry story https://davidsworlddotorg.wordpress.com/2013/06/27/stranded-in-death-valley-part-i-of-iii/ https://davidsworlddotorg.wordpress.com/2013/06/27/stranded-...
      - ghaff 6y ago
        Of course, one of the problems with a lot of these roads is that they're barely one vehicle wide with a rock face on one side and sharp dropoff on the other. In this one particular case, I had driven up to a cemetery on a road that wasn't too bad and I decided to continue on up to a ghost town which was a few more miles as I recall. The road worsened considerably and I had neither the vehicle nor the comfort level to inch along for miles of white-knuckle driving never mind potentially encountering another vehicle. Fortunately I eventually came across a slight widening that allowed me to do something like a 30 point turn to get turned around. I'm actually usually more comfortable on the way back because I can be reasonably confident that if I could get up I can get down. Whereas I'm more concerned that things have just started to get bad on the way up. One thing that I think throws people off too is that, even if you do your homework, a lot of guides and web sites are written by people who have been driving their properly-equipped Jeep Rubicons around the deserts and mountains for years--which can make things seem a lot more straightforward to amateurs with basically street cars than they are.
      - hef19898 6y ago
        That seems to be a general theme, so. More often that not that's how people end up in bad spots in the Alps. That, and weather. Add to is faulty assumptions about the environment and ones skills, and it turns into a bad combination. Edit: One intense read! And it reminded me of a safety tip for long distance hiking. Always tell the people at the place you leave where you are going and when you want to be their. If you don't show up, search teams know where to look. Also, turn around sooner rather than later. Not blaming the tourists, so. I ended up, young and stupid, in places in Alps I neither should have been nor wanted to end up in. Stuff like that just adds up, if you aren't super careful it is very easy to miss the point of no return.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
jiscariot 6y ago
It really is an amazing national park. The vastness of it all is stunning--you have Batwater Basin at -282' elevation and Telescope peak at 11k. My partner and I hiked Wildrose Peak 9k (+2200) because Telescope had too much snow on it. The size of the park really hits home when you see that 2-inches on the NPS map takes you 1.5hrs by car. Our rental car was punished pretty hard by the roads, but held up like a champ. There was no way we were getting to the roads that DVG were lost on. The morbid streak in me wanted to find the bush described in [1], but we had to give up after an hour or so. There is something about tying a place to a story. Will definitely be back to explore the park more. If you are tenting, reserve your site early, because there are only a couple camp areas that aren't engulfed by pull-behinds and their generators running 24/7. [1] https://www.otherhand.org/home-page/search-and-rescue/searching-for-norman-cox/ https://www.otherhand.org/home-page/search-and-rescue/search...
- NikolaeVarius 6y ago
  Thanks. Convinced me to really try and go
- rconti 6y ago
  Consider going in the winter. At least, don't go in the summer. Although we did get snowed on in March one year. I took a motorcycle trip with a friend once, and daytime temps were in the low 70s around sea level in January. Of course, it got very very cold at night, so if you get stuck/lost, that's a whole other set of problems to deal with. We didn't take any risks on our trip, but after seeing how badly my skidplate and oil filter got damaged on some 4wd trails, I'm glad I didn't have to get it hauled out by a specialty towing business to the tune of.. thousands? of dollars. I suppose it depends on what you're looking to do, but from a "general tourist" standpoint, the few major roads are paved and in excellent condition (or, at least, before the flooding). Across the valley from the Mono Lake area where you enter the area from the west, through Panamint, into the park proper, and all the way out to Nevada.. And from Ubehebe Crater in the north, way down to Zabriske point and out to Las Vegas to the south. The large tourist attractions are on these paved roads, and even a lot of the hiking is just a short 2 mile drive down a well-graded gravel road. Though I understand the road to Scotty's Castle, if it's open yet, is somewhat rougher. On the flip side, the remote areas are truly remote. Racetrack Playa is 20 miles down a horrible washboard road from Ubehebe Crater (which itself is about as remote as you can get on a paved road in the park) and I only recommend you drive it in a vehicle owned by someone you truly hate, as it won't be the same again. You won't get stuck or lost, though. Unless you try the "shortcut" across Lippincott pass that looks so much easier on a map than driving back the way you came.
hirundo 6y ago
> I find that in modern times, people have no idea how much nature is out to kill them. To get an idea with not much chance of dying, check out the reality TV show "Alone" on Netflix or Amazon Prime or the History channel. On season one episode one there's a rough tough cop contestant that SPOILER taps out after one night of too much reality in the woods ... and I had a lot of sympathy for him.

ghaff 6y ago

They were actually on a "known road." It's on the map. The problem is that what constitutes a "road" on a map in Death Valley (and many areas in the US West) may not look much like the sort of road many people in more built-up areas expect. See also the assumptions the German tourists apparently made about China Lake. Added: In general, once you get beyond paved roads, maps don't necessarily reliably distinguish between dirt road that's usually well-graded and maintained and "LOL. You'd better have a high clearance 4WD--not a crossover wannabe--and know how to drive it."

NikolaeVarius 6y ago
Well yes, but their fate was sealed when they accidentally went off road. I preface "known" with, "the most obviously correct road for current conditions" The people in the article already were going down roads that were not obviously compatible with their vehicle before they got lost.
- ghaff 6y ago
  Fair enough. I have been on roads in that area of the country where at some point I went "Nope. I have neither the skills nor the vehicle for this" and turned around. (With very considerable difficulty in one case I remember.) It appears in this case that the family probably felt very pressed for time so they kept on. Which is the sort of thing that often factors into events like this.
  - rconti 6y ago
    The "very considerable difficulty" part is key, as I'm sure you realize. So often as roads get worse, we feel lucky we made it past that obstacle "that one time" and can only imagine it gets better if you press on, because you're not sure you can make it back the way you came. Related, the Death Valley Camry story https://davidsworlddotorg.wordpress.com/2013/06/27/stranded-in-death-valley-part-i-of-iii/ https://davidsworlddotorg.wordpress.com/2013/06/27/stranded-...
    - ghaff 6y ago
      Of course, one of the problems with a lot of these roads is that they're barely one vehicle wide with a rock face on one side and sharp dropoff on the other. In this one particular case, I had driven up to a cemetery on a road that wasn't too bad and I decided to continue on up to a ghost town which was a few more miles as I recall. The road worsened considerably and I had neither the vehicle nor the comfort level to inch along for miles of white-knuckle driving never mind potentially encountering another vehicle. Fortunately I eventually came across a slight widening that allowed me to do something like a 30 point turn to get turned around. I'm actually usually more comfortable on the way back because I can be reasonably confident that if I could get up I can get down. Whereas I'm more concerned that things have just started to get bad on the way up. One thing that I think throws people off too is that, even if you do your homework, a lot of guides and web sites are written by people who have been driving their properly-equipped Jeep Rubicons around the deserts and mountains for years--which can make things seem a lot more straightforward to amateurs with basically street cars than they are.
    - hef19898 6y ago
      That seems to be a general theme, so. More often that not that's how people end up in bad spots in the Alps. That, and weather. Add to is faulty assumptions about the environment and ones skills, and it turns into a bad combination. Edit: One intense read! And it reminded me of a safety tip for long distance hiking. Always tell the people at the place you leave where you are going and when you want to be their. If you don't show up, search teams know where to look. Also, turn around sooner rather than later. Not blaming the tourists, so. I ended up, young and stupid, in places in Alps I neither should have been nor wanted to end up in. Stuff like that just adds up, if you aren't super careful it is very easy to miss the point of no return.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

jiscariot 6y ago

It really is an amazing national park. The vastness of it all is stunning--you have Batwater Basin at -282' elevation and Telescope peak at 11k. My partner and I hiked Wildrose Peak 9k (+2200) because Telescope had too much snow on it. The size of the park really hits home when you see that 2-inches on the NPS map takes you 1.5hrs by car. Our rental car was punished pretty hard by the roads, but held up like a champ. There was no way we were getting to the roads that DVG were lost on. The morbid streak in me wanted to find the bush described in [1], but we had to give up after an hour or so. There is something about tying a place to a story. Will definitely be back to explore the park more. If you are tenting, reserve your site early, because there are only a couple camp areas that aren't engulfed by pull-behinds and their generators running 24/7. [1] https://www.otherhand.org/home-page/search-and-rescue/searching-for-norman-cox/ https://www.otherhand.org/home-page/search-and-rescue/search...

NikolaeVarius 6y ago
Thanks. Convinced me to really try and go
rconti 6y ago
Consider going in the winter. At least, don't go in the summer. Although we did get snowed on in March one year. I took a motorcycle trip with a friend once, and daytime temps were in the low 70s around sea level in January. Of course, it got very very cold at night, so if you get stuck/lost, that's a whole other set of problems to deal with. We didn't take any risks on our trip, but after seeing how badly my skidplate and oil filter got damaged on some 4wd trails, I'm glad I didn't have to get it hauled out by a specialty towing business to the tune of.. thousands? of dollars. I suppose it depends on what you're looking to do, but from a "general tourist" standpoint, the few major roads are paved and in excellent condition (or, at least, before the flooding). Across the valley from the Mono Lake area where you enter the area from the west, through Panamint, into the park proper, and all the way out to Nevada.. And from Ubehebe Crater in the north, way down to Zabriske point and out to Las Vegas to the south. The large tourist attractions are on these paved roads, and even a lot of the hiking is just a short 2 mile drive down a well-graded gravel road. Though I understand the road to Scotty's Castle, if it's open yet, is somewhat rougher. On the flip side, the remote areas are truly remote. Racetrack Playa is 20 miles down a horrible washboard road from Ubehebe Crater (which itself is about as remote as you can get on a paved road in the park) and I only recommend you drive it in a vehicle owned by someone you truly hate, as it won't be the same again. You won't get stuck or lost, though. Unless you try the "shortcut" across Lippincott pass that looks so much easier on a map than driving back the way you came.

hirundo 6y ago

> I find that in modern times, people have no idea how much nature is out to kill them. To get an idea with not much chance of dying, check out the reality TV show "Alone" on Netflix or Amazon Prime or the History channel. On season one episode one there's a rough tough cop contestant that SPOILER taps out after one night of too much reality in the woods ... and I had a lot of sympathy for him.