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Well that was riveting, bit of a cliffhanger at the end there. I had hoped for more closure, just like the author. What stands out is how the author leaks info

Well that was riveting, bit of a cliffhanger at the end there. I had hoped for more closure, just like the author. What stands out is how the author leaks information to people in the first parts of the story, and then is peeved at the Sheriff's department keeping him out of the loop near the end. The author says they trusted the wrong person but really they should have trusted no one. You live and you learn. This article cannot convey to me, a european who has never seen wilderness, what Death Valley really is. I still don't understand why or how the family would set out from their van, not in the direction their van came from but rather further into the wilderness. With wine and beer as their only apparent sources of liquids. This seems the biggest issue here, people underestimating Death Valley, I mean it should be apparent from the name.

NikolaeVarius 6y ago
I find that in modern times, people have no idea how much nature is out to kill them. Nature does not give a shit about you. Just because something is a national park does not mean its Disney Land. I've driven through Death Valley, never hiked (though i wish to do so some day), and I would not wish to deviate from known roads ever. Its a flat huge stupidly hot desert. If you get lost, welp. Even the main road gets extremely dodgy at a few/many places. Though if you're lucky you'll find the green patch somewhere in there (a damn golf course in the middle of the desert)
- ghaff 6y ago
  They were actually on a "known road." It's on the map. The problem is that what constitutes a "road" on a map in Death Valley (and many areas in the US West) may not look much like the sort of road many people in more built-up areas expect. See also the assumptions the German tourists apparently made about China Lake. Added: In general, once you get beyond paved roads, maps don't necessarily reliably distinguish between dirt road that's usually well-graded and maintained and "LOL. You'd better have a high clearance 4WD--not a crossover wannabe--and know how to drive it."
  - NikolaeVarius 6y ago
    Well yes, but their fate was sealed when they accidentally went off road. I preface "known" with, "the most obviously correct road for current conditions" The people in the article already were going down roads that were not obviously compatible with their vehicle before they got lost.
    - ghaff 6y ago
      Fair enough. I have been on roads in that area of the country where at some point I went "Nope. I have neither the skills nor the vehicle for this" and turned around. (With very considerable difficulty in one case I remember.) It appears in this case that the family probably felt very pressed for time so they kept on. Which is the sort of thing that often factors into events like this.
      - rconti 6y ago
        The "very considerable difficulty" part is key, as I'm sure you realize. So often as roads get worse, we feel lucky we made it past that obstacle "that one time" and can only imagine it gets better if you press on, because you're not sure you can make it back the way you came. Related, the Death Valley Camry story https://davidsworlddotorg.wordpress.com/2013/06/27/stranded-in-death-valley-part-i-of-iii/ https://davidsworlddotorg.wordpress.com/2013/06/27/stranded-...
        ghaff 6y ago
        Of course, one of the problems with a lot of these roads is that they're barely one vehicle wide with a rock face on one side and sharp dropoff on the other. In this one particular case, I had driven up to a cemetery on a road that wasn't too bad and I decided to continue on up to a ghost town which was a few more miles as I recall. The road worsened considerably and I had neither the vehicle nor the comfort level to inch along for miles of white-knuckle driving never mind potentially encountering another vehicle. Fortunately I eventually came across a slight widening that allowed me to do something like a 30 point turn to get turned around. I'm actually usually more comfortable on the way back because I can be reasonably confident that if I could get up I can get down. Whereas I'm more concerned that things have just started to get bad on the way up. One thing that I think throws people off too is that, even if you do your homework, a lot of guides and web sites are written by people who have been driving their properly-equipped Jeep Rubicons around the deserts and mountains for years--which can make things seem a lot more straightforward to amateurs with basically street cars than they are.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- jiscariot 6y ago
  It really is an amazing national park. The vastness of it all is stunning--you have Batwater Basin at -282' elevation and Telescope peak at 11k. My partner and I hiked Wildrose Peak 9k (+2200) because Telescope had too much snow on it. The size of the park really hits home when you see that 2-inches on the NPS map takes you 1.5hrs by car. Our rental car was punished pretty hard by the roads, but held up like a champ. There was no way we were getting to the roads that DVG were lost on. The morbid streak in me wanted to find the bush described in [1], but we had to give up after an hour or so. There is something about tying a place to a story. Will definitely be back to explore the park more. If you are tenting, reserve your site early, because there are only a couple camp areas that aren't engulfed by pull-behinds and their generators running 24/7. [1] https://www.otherhand.org/home-page/search-and-rescue/searching-for-norman-cox/ https://www.otherhand.org/home-page/search-and-rescue/search...
  - NikolaeVarius 6y ago
    Thanks. Convinced me to really try and go
  - rconti 6y ago
    Consider going in the winter. At least, don't go in the summer. Although we did get snowed on in March one year. I took a motorcycle trip with a friend once, and daytime temps were in the low 70s around sea level in January. Of course, it got very very cold at night, so if you get stuck/lost, that's a whole other set of problems to deal with. We didn't take any risks on our trip, but after seeing how badly my skidplate and oil filter got damaged on some 4wd trails, I'm glad I didn't have to get it hauled out by a specialty towing business to the tune of.. thousands? of dollars. I suppose it depends on what you're looking to do, but from a "general tourist" standpoint, the few major roads are paved and in excellent condition (or, at least, before the flooding). Across the valley from the Mono Lake area where you enter the area from the west, through Panamint, into the park proper, and all the way out to Nevada.. And from Ubehebe Crater in the north, way down to Zabriske point and out to Las Vegas to the south. The large tourist attractions are on these paved roads, and even a lot of the hiking is just a short 2 mile drive down a well-graded gravel road. Though I understand the road to Scotty's Castle, if it's open yet, is somewhat rougher. On the flip side, the remote areas are truly remote. Racetrack Playa is 20 miles down a horrible washboard road from Ubehebe Crater (which itself is about as remote as you can get on a paved road in the park) and I only recommend you drive it in a vehicle owned by someone you truly hate, as it won't be the same again. You won't get stuck or lost, though. Unless you try the "shortcut" across Lippincott pass that looks so much easier on a map than driving back the way you came.
- hirundo 6y ago
  > I find that in modern times, people have no idea how much nature is out to kill them. To get an idea with not much chance of dying, check out the reality TV show "Alone" on Netflix or Amazon Prime or the History channel. On season one episode one there's a rough tough cop contestant that SPOILER taps out after one night of too much reality in the woods ... and I had a lot of sympathy for him.
ghaff 6y ago
>What stands out is how the author leaks information to people in the first parts of the story, and then is peeved at the Sheriff's department keeping him out of the loop near the end. One of the things that I think happened at the end was that, as far as the Sheriff's department was concerned, the missing persons' case was solved and they'd recovered what they needed to recover even if not everything was wrapped up in a neat bow. I get the author's somewhat frustration but I also get that the Sheriff's department had absolutely zero interest in any outside involvement that would create an obligation to devote further resources to tying that bow.
eesmith 6y ago
Intuition can be very misleading. If you know there's nothing behind you, and you're used to something every 100 km or less, then you might decide to go forward. During WW2, the US kept German POWs in camps in the US Southwest. In the Great Papago Escape, some Germans constructed a collapsible raft, hoping to get to the Salt River and float down to Mexico. The Salt River is perennial, and there wasn't enough water for them to do that. Germany doesn't have the same geography or hydrology. Because the escapees were unfamiliar with the terrain, most of them were quickly recaptured. I've been to Death Valley twice, both in vehicles with A/C, and plenty of water. I cannot convey it either. It's also huge. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruhr https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruhr tells me the Ruhr Valley metropolitan area is 4,435 km2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Valley https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Valley says Death Valley is much larger, at 7,800 km2. (It's about 1/2 the size of the Rhine Rift Valley; Oberrheinische Tiefebene.) The drive from Badwater (the lowest point) to Scotty's Castle is about 170km. With no services along the way.
- rconti 6y ago
  Quick correction; I've never been to Scotty's Castle, but I've been to DV a handful of times and that all struck me as slightly off. It looks like the distance is 117km (73mi), and actually that route is denser in terms of services than any other part of DV. You'll go past Furnace Creek which is the only place in the park with premium gasoline, and you'll pass the major junction with Highway 190 which means regular gasoline is available at Stovepipe just a handful of miles west of that junction. (The only other place with fuel that I can think of, offhand, is Panamint Springs, and is quite a bit more pricey than the other areas.. and also, a mountain crossing away)
  - eesmith 6y ago
    D'Oh! Yeah, I was thinking Furnace Creek to Scotty's Castle. It's been 10 years since I was there last. Thanks for the correction!
- kolanos 6y ago
  Forget backroads, when travelling by highway you will be met with a sign that says "No Services 120 mi". And there is literally nothing resembling civilization, aside from the road itself, for that entire stretch.
jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
It's been a couple years since I read through this saga, but as I recall the main theory of why they went that route is that they likely had a map that showed the border of the military base was that direction. Someone not familiar with the American west and US military facilities in general might think that would mean a densely populated base with guards on patrol and people to help, rather than the sad reality of a huge empty wilderness reserved for the military to occasionally do exercises within.
- INTPenis 6y ago
  Oh, you explained that slightly better than the author imo. But now the pieces I remember from the article fall into place. We have similar places here in Sweden that are technically owned by the military but they have a schedule when they're in use and on off times can often be used for camping by tourists, or grazing by local farmers. I wouldn't compare anything I've seen in Sweden or Europe to the level of wilderness in DVNP. The most wild thing I've seen here was Samaria gorge on Crete and it was full of tourists, a well defined path and water sources. (I'm from the south of Sweden, I realize the north has a lot of vast wilderness;)
alistairSH 6y ago
This article cannot convey to me, a european who has never seen wilderness, what Death Valley really is DV is about the size of Cyprus, and has the hottest temperatures encountered on the planet. It's sort of the opposite of how I imagine Siberia. Vast, remote, but hot & dry instead of cold & wet. Forest areas painted by NPS or various other federal agencies in the US are also criss-crossed with "forest roads", which are marked on park maps (but not generally on street maps), but many of which are little more than rough double track that a small 4x4 could traverse, but nothing you'd travel in a normal car. I could see a European driver (or even an American who doesn't spend time in wilderness) seeing "FR-286" marked on a map, assume it's just an unpaved (but still maintained) dirt/gravel road, and start down it, 10 miles it, it turns to shit, but there's no easy turn-around, so push on deeper and deeper, and suddenly realize he's screwed. Also worth noting, for those unfamiliar, Wilderness (capital 'W') has a special legal meaning in the US. It's park/forest area in which mechanical transport is forbidden - foot or pack-animal only. And "road" inside Wilderness is likely to be overgrown and very rough.
rconti 6y ago
I presume the plan was to return to the van as shelter if necessary, as the China Lake[1] military base was "only" 8 miles from the van. Having driven a far down the road as they had, they knew full well they were not going to encounter anyone or anything walking back the way they came. It's worth noting that China Lake, as original article suggests the DVG may have expected to be fully staffed, is only slightly smaller in size than Turkey. (19,500sqmi vs 23,000sqmi). I don't know much of anything about it, but I'm guessing it makes Death Valley look like a metropolis. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Air_Weapons_Station_China_Lake https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Air_Weapons_Station_Chin...
- 0xffff2 6y ago
  Sorry, where are you getting 19,500 sq. mi.? The Wikipedia article says 4,500 sq. km., or ~1,700 sq. mi. Not that it matters much. I spent several years stationed at the Army's nearby Ft. Irwin and the area is so desolate the actual number hardly matters. Edit: Reading further into the Wikipedia article, I think you took the number for the size of the controlled airspace around China Lake, which isn't the same as area enclosed by the land perimeter.
  - rconti 6y ago
    Thanks. Yeah, I guess it didn't really pass the sniff test.

NikolaeVarius 6y ago

I find that in modern times, people have no idea how much nature is out to kill them. Nature does not give a shit about you. Just because something is a national park does not mean its Disney Land. I've driven through Death Valley, never hiked (though i wish to do so some day), and I would not wish to deviate from known roads ever. Its a flat huge stupidly hot desert. If you get lost, welp. Even the main road gets extremely dodgy at a few/many places. Though if you're lucky you'll find the green patch somewhere in there (a damn golf course in the middle of the desert)

ghaff 6y ago
They were actually on a "known road." It's on the map. The problem is that what constitutes a "road" on a map in Death Valley (and many areas in the US West) may not look much like the sort of road many people in more built-up areas expect. See also the assumptions the German tourists apparently made about China Lake. Added: In general, once you get beyond paved roads, maps don't necessarily reliably distinguish between dirt road that's usually well-graded and maintained and "LOL. You'd better have a high clearance 4WD--not a crossover wannabe--and know how to drive it."
- NikolaeVarius 6y ago
  Well yes, but their fate was sealed when they accidentally went off road. I preface "known" with, "the most obviously correct road for current conditions" The people in the article already were going down roads that were not obviously compatible with their vehicle before they got lost.
  - ghaff 6y ago
    Fair enough. I have been on roads in that area of the country where at some point I went "Nope. I have neither the skills nor the vehicle for this" and turned around. (With very considerable difficulty in one case I remember.) It appears in this case that the family probably felt very pressed for time so they kept on. Which is the sort of thing that often factors into events like this.
    - rconti 6y ago
      The "very considerable difficulty" part is key, as I'm sure you realize. So often as roads get worse, we feel lucky we made it past that obstacle "that one time" and can only imagine it gets better if you press on, because you're not sure you can make it back the way you came. Related, the Death Valley Camry story https://davidsworlddotorg.wordpress.com/2013/06/27/stranded-in-death-valley-part-i-of-iii/ https://davidsworlddotorg.wordpress.com/2013/06/27/stranded-...
      - ghaff 6y ago
        Of course, one of the problems with a lot of these roads is that they're barely one vehicle wide with a rock face on one side and sharp dropoff on the other. In this one particular case, I had driven up to a cemetery on a road that wasn't too bad and I decided to continue on up to a ghost town which was a few more miles as I recall. The road worsened considerably and I had neither the vehicle nor the comfort level to inch along for miles of white-knuckle driving never mind potentially encountering another vehicle. Fortunately I eventually came across a slight widening that allowed me to do something like a 30 point turn to get turned around. I'm actually usually more comfortable on the way back because I can be reasonably confident that if I could get up I can get down. Whereas I'm more concerned that things have just started to get bad on the way up. One thing that I think throws people off too is that, even if you do your homework, a lot of guides and web sites are written by people who have been driving their properly-equipped Jeep Rubicons around the deserts and mountains for years--which can make things seem a lot more straightforward to amateurs with basically street cars than they are.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
jiscariot 6y ago
It really is an amazing national park. The vastness of it all is stunning--you have Batwater Basin at -282' elevation and Telescope peak at 11k. My partner and I hiked Wildrose Peak 9k (+2200) because Telescope had too much snow on it. The size of the park really hits home when you see that 2-inches on the NPS map takes you 1.5hrs by car. Our rental car was punished pretty hard by the roads, but held up like a champ. There was no way we were getting to the roads that DVG were lost on. The morbid streak in me wanted to find the bush described in [1], but we had to give up after an hour or so. There is something about tying a place to a story. Will definitely be back to explore the park more. If you are tenting, reserve your site early, because there are only a couple camp areas that aren't engulfed by pull-behinds and their generators running 24/7. [1] https://www.otherhand.org/home-page/search-and-rescue/searching-for-norman-cox/ https://www.otherhand.org/home-page/search-and-rescue/search...
- NikolaeVarius 6y ago
  Thanks. Convinced me to really try and go
- rconti 6y ago
  Consider going in the winter. At least, don't go in the summer. Although we did get snowed on in March one year. I took a motorcycle trip with a friend once, and daytime temps were in the low 70s around sea level in January. Of course, it got very very cold at night, so if you get stuck/lost, that's a whole other set of problems to deal with. We didn't take any risks on our trip, but after seeing how badly my skidplate and oil filter got damaged on some 4wd trails, I'm glad I didn't have to get it hauled out by a specialty towing business to the tune of.. thousands? of dollars. I suppose it depends on what you're looking to do, but from a "general tourist" standpoint, the few major roads are paved and in excellent condition (or, at least, before the flooding). Across the valley from the Mono Lake area where you enter the area from the west, through Panamint, into the park proper, and all the way out to Nevada.. And from Ubehebe Crater in the north, way down to Zabriske point and out to Las Vegas to the south. The large tourist attractions are on these paved roads, and even a lot of the hiking is just a short 2 mile drive down a well-graded gravel road. Though I understand the road to Scotty's Castle, if it's open yet, is somewhat rougher. On the flip side, the remote areas are truly remote. Racetrack Playa is 20 miles down a horrible washboard road from Ubehebe Crater (which itself is about as remote as you can get on a paved road in the park) and I only recommend you drive it in a vehicle owned by someone you truly hate, as it won't be the same again. You won't get stuck or lost, though. Unless you try the "shortcut" across Lippincott pass that looks so much easier on a map than driving back the way you came.
hirundo 6y ago
> I find that in modern times, people have no idea how much nature is out to kill them. To get an idea with not much chance of dying, check out the reality TV show "Alone" on Netflix or Amazon Prime or the History channel. On season one episode one there's a rough tough cop contestant that SPOILER taps out after one night of too much reality in the woods ... and I had a lot of sympathy for him.

ghaff 6y ago

>What stands out is how the author leaks information to people in the first parts of the story, and then is peeved at the Sheriff's department keeping him out of the loop near the end. One of the things that I think happened at the end was that, as far as the Sheriff's department was concerned, the missing persons' case was solved and they'd recovered what they needed to recover even if not everything was wrapped up in a neat bow. I get the author's somewhat frustration but I also get that the Sheriff's department had absolutely zero interest in any outside involvement that would create an obligation to devote further resources to tying that bow.

eesmith 6y ago

Intuition can be very misleading. If you know there's nothing behind you, and you're used to something every 100 km or less, then you might decide to go forward. During WW2, the US kept German POWs in camps in the US Southwest. In the Great Papago Escape, some Germans constructed a collapsible raft, hoping to get to the Salt River and float down to Mexico. The Salt River is perennial, and there wasn't enough water for them to do that. Germany doesn't have the same geography or hydrology. Because the escapees were unfamiliar with the terrain, most of them were quickly recaptured. I've been to Death Valley twice, both in vehicles with A/C, and plenty of water. I cannot convey it either. It's also huge. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruhr https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruhr tells me the Ruhr Valley metropolitan area is 4,435 km2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Valley https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Valley says Death Valley is much larger, at 7,800 km2. (It's about 1/2 the size of the Rhine Rift Valley; Oberrheinische Tiefebene.) The drive from Badwater (the lowest point) to Scotty's Castle is about 170km. With no services along the way.

rconti 6y ago
Quick correction; I've never been to Scotty's Castle, but I've been to DV a handful of times and that all struck me as slightly off. It looks like the distance is 117km (73mi), and actually that route is denser in terms of services than any other part of DV. You'll go past Furnace Creek which is the only place in the park with premium gasoline, and you'll pass the major junction with Highway 190 which means regular gasoline is available at Stovepipe just a handful of miles west of that junction. (The only other place with fuel that I can think of, offhand, is Panamint Springs, and is quite a bit more pricey than the other areas.. and also, a mountain crossing away)
- eesmith 6y ago
  D'Oh! Yeah, I was thinking Furnace Creek to Scotty's Castle. It's been 10 years since I was there last. Thanks for the correction!
kolanos 6y ago
Forget backroads, when travelling by highway you will be met with a sign that says "No Services 120 mi". And there is literally nothing resembling civilization, aside from the road itself, for that entire stretch.

jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago

It's been a couple years since I read through this saga, but as I recall the main theory of why they went that route is that they likely had a map that showed the border of the military base was that direction. Someone not familiar with the American west and US military facilities in general might think that would mean a densely populated base with guards on patrol and people to help, rather than the sad reality of a huge empty wilderness reserved for the military to occasionally do exercises within.

INTPenis 6y ago
Oh, you explained that slightly better than the author imo. But now the pieces I remember from the article fall into place. We have similar places here in Sweden that are technically owned by the military but they have a schedule when they're in use and on off times can often be used for camping by tourists, or grazing by local farmers. I wouldn't compare anything I've seen in Sweden or Europe to the level of wilderness in DVNP. The most wild thing I've seen here was Samaria gorge on Crete and it was full of tourists, a well defined path and water sources. (I'm from the south of Sweden, I realize the north has a lot of vast wilderness;)

alistairSH 6y ago

This article cannot convey to me, a european who has never seen wilderness, what Death Valley really is DV is about the size of Cyprus, and has the hottest temperatures encountered on the planet. It's sort of the opposite of how I imagine Siberia. Vast, remote, but hot & dry instead of cold & wet. Forest areas painted by NPS or various other federal agencies in the US are also criss-crossed with "forest roads", which are marked on park maps (but not generally on street maps), but many of which are little more than rough double track that a small 4x4 could traverse, but nothing you'd travel in a normal car. I could see a European driver (or even an American who doesn't spend time in wilderness) seeing "FR-286" marked on a map, assume it's just an unpaved (but still maintained) dirt/gravel road, and start down it, 10 miles it, it turns to shit, but there's no easy turn-around, so push on deeper and deeper, and suddenly realize he's screwed. Also worth noting, for those unfamiliar, Wilderness (capital 'W') has a special legal meaning in the US. It's park/forest area in which mechanical transport is forbidden - foot or pack-animal only. And "road" inside Wilderness is likely to be overgrown and very rough.

rconti 6y ago

I presume the plan was to return to the van as shelter if necessary, as the China Lake[1] military base was "only" 8 miles from the van. Having driven a far down the road as they had, they knew full well they were not going to encounter anyone or anything walking back the way they came. It's worth noting that China Lake, as original article suggests the DVG may have expected to be fully staffed, is only slightly smaller in size than Turkey. (19,500sqmi vs 23,000sqmi). I don't know much of anything about it, but I'm guessing it makes Death Valley look like a metropolis. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Air_Weapons_Station_China_Lake https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Air_Weapons_Station_Chin...

0xffff2 6y ago
Sorry, where are you getting 19,500 sq. mi.? The Wikipedia article says 4,500 sq. km., or ~1,700 sq. mi. Not that it matters much. I spent several years stationed at the Army's nearby Ft. Irwin and the area is so desolate the actual number hardly matters. Edit: Reading further into the Wikipedia article, I think you took the number for the size of the controlled airspace around China Lake, which isn't the same as area enclosed by the land perimeter.
- rconti 6y ago
  Thanks. Yeah, I guess it didn't really pass the sniff test.