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Never heard of Mapillary, but does that mean that web requests to OSM shovel data to Facebook now? The article is too opaque and euphemistic to allow practical

Never heard of Mapillary, but does that mean that web requests to OSM shovel data to Facebook now? The article is too opaque and euphemistic to allow practical conclusions. Mapillary can “journey” wherever they want as long as they don't take me, as their non-user, with them.

KaiserPro 6y ago
> but does that mean that web requests to OSM shovel data to Facebook now? Other way round. Facebook pile a bunch of time and tools into OSM maps.
maxerickson 6y ago
No direct impact on OSM services. Mapillary is/was a private for profit company that allows people to extract information from their crowd sourced photos and then add it to OpenStreetMap. So a road sign or business name or whatever. This arrangement encouraged lots of OSM users to contribute photos to Mapillary, as it is a nice way to add information to OSM (and to enable others to add information). The indirect impact on OSM services is that turning on the view of the Mapillary images in an OSM editor will request that data from Mapillary servers (which are now Facebook servers). So you can go to the OpenStreetMap website and engage in an activity where you request data from Facebook servers. But you have to sign in, activate the editor and then activate the view of the images for that to happen. A lot of the people that contributed heavily to Mapillary are disappointed with this outcome, as they have strong feelings about Facebook. I've contributed a little bit to Mapillary and will likely continue to do so, as I'm not trying to create an open data street view commons, I'm using it as a convenience.
- tempodox 6y ago
  Thank you for that excellent explanation.
- blackboxlogic 6y ago
  it would take a lot of convincing for me to welcome Facebook into any project I'm part of. I've pointed out to one of their POs that they are violating OSMs copyright by not showing any attribution when browsing on mobile. I'm not confident it will ever be fixed. When they ask to be integrated into a project they're already abusing, the answer should be hard no. I'll reply to this comment if they start respecting OSMs copyright (unless comments get locked?). Just musing... but where do I file a DMCA?
  - maxerickson 6y ago
    Their use of the data is subject to section 4.3 of the ODBL. The language there demands a notice "reasonably calculated" to make the user "aware" of the data source. It doesn't demand on map attribution. Attribution on the map is a clear, easy way to meet that bar (and acknowledges the many OSM contributors that see a prominent notice as being necessary to meet the license), but it isn't clear that the court tested bar will be so high. Note that I'm not drawing "We'll see you in court" as a good way for a company to act towards a community, just commenting on where and how their obligations are defined.
    - blackboxlogic 6y ago
      Well, browse to a FB page on mobile, and play "find the data source". When you lose that game, I'd say they did not "make the user aware".
      - texasbigdata 6y ago
        Especially when the FB map guys go on podcasts and brag about how they use the data source and how advanced they are.
  - rmc 6y ago
    The OSMF is currently working on an Attribution Guidelines which should help with FB's attribution
scatters 6y ago
If you edit using iD (the default in-website editor), and you explicitly choose to request Mapillary imagery (at least two extra mouse clicks) then yes, in the abstract Facebook will be aware that you used Mapillary imagery to aid your contributions. Similarly other editors (programs and apps) may have Mapillary integration; you'll have to check with them but typically you'll be aware if you're using Mapillary imagery (you should, to be able to attribute correctly). Finally some OSM apps (e.g. OsmAnd) use Mapillary to provide street-level imagery (Google StreetView-style) for general use; if you're concerned you can probably disable this. The main website does not at present integrate Mapillary directly. Of course, this could change in future if they decide to make it more interactive, but even then it seems likely that this would only be in the case the user asks to see street-level imagery.
rmc 6y ago
> does that mean that web requests to OSM shovel data to Facebook now? Absolutely not. Mapillary was an independent company. They were very friendly & helpful to the OSM community, and popular amoung OSM contributors, but they were never a "part" of OSM.org.

KaiserPro 6y ago

> but does that mean that web requests to OSM shovel data to Facebook now? Other way round. Facebook pile a bunch of time and tools into OSM maps.

maxerickson 6y ago

No direct impact on OSM services. Mapillary is/was a private for profit company that allows people to extract information from their crowd sourced photos and then add it to OpenStreetMap. So a road sign or business name or whatever. This arrangement encouraged lots of OSM users to contribute photos to Mapillary, as it is a nice way to add information to OSM (and to enable others to add information). The indirect impact on OSM services is that turning on the view of the Mapillary images in an OSM editor will request that data from Mapillary servers (which are now Facebook servers). So you can go to the OpenStreetMap website and engage in an activity where you request data from Facebook servers. But you have to sign in, activate the editor and then activate the view of the images for that to happen. A lot of the people that contributed heavily to Mapillary are disappointed with this outcome, as they have strong feelings about Facebook. I've contributed a little bit to Mapillary and will likely continue to do so, as I'm not trying to create an open data street view commons, I'm using it as a convenience.

tempodox 6y ago
Thank you for that excellent explanation.
blackboxlogic 6y ago
it would take a lot of convincing for me to welcome Facebook into any project I'm part of. I've pointed out to one of their POs that they are violating OSMs copyright by not showing any attribution when browsing on mobile. I'm not confident it will ever be fixed. When they ask to be integrated into a project they're already abusing, the answer should be hard no. I'll reply to this comment if they start respecting OSMs copyright (unless comments get locked?). Just musing... but where do I file a DMCA?
- maxerickson 6y ago
  Their use of the data is subject to section 4.3 of the ODBL. The language there demands a notice "reasonably calculated" to make the user "aware" of the data source. It doesn't demand on map attribution. Attribution on the map is a clear, easy way to meet that bar (and acknowledges the many OSM contributors that see a prominent notice as being necessary to meet the license), but it isn't clear that the court tested bar will be so high. Note that I'm not drawing "We'll see you in court" as a good way for a company to act towards a community, just commenting on where and how their obligations are defined.
  - blackboxlogic 6y ago
    Well, browse to a FB page on mobile, and play "find the data source". When you lose that game, I'd say they did not "make the user aware".
    - texasbigdata 6y ago
      Especially when the FB map guys go on podcasts and brag about how they use the data source and how advanced they are.
- rmc 6y ago
  The OSMF is currently working on an Attribution Guidelines which should help with FB's attribution

scatters 6y ago

If you edit using iD (the default in-website editor), and you explicitly choose to request Mapillary imagery (at least two extra mouse clicks) then yes, in the abstract Facebook will be aware that you used Mapillary imagery to aid your contributions. Similarly other editors (programs and apps) may have Mapillary integration; you'll have to check with them but typically you'll be aware if you're using Mapillary imagery (you should, to be able to attribute correctly). Finally some OSM apps (e.g. OsmAnd) use Mapillary to provide street-level imagery (Google StreetView-style) for general use; if you're concerned you can probably disable this. The main website does not at present integrate Mapillary directly. Of course, this could change in future if they decide to make it more interactive, but even then it seems likely that this would only be in the case the user asks to see street-level imagery.

rmc 6y ago

> does that mean that web requests to OSM shovel data to Facebook now? Absolutely not. Mapillary was an independent company. They were very friendly & helpful to the OSM community, and popular amoung OSM contributors, but they were never a "part" of OSM.org.