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History is a narrative, and States all want to write a particular narrative to make the governance of their communities easier. It's always been an absurdity th

History is a narrative, and States all want to write a particular narrative to make the governance of their communities easier. It's always been an absurdity that the USA somehow decided that maintaining a bunch of tacky statues of traitorous assholes built a half century after they lost a war is somehow key to creating an American history; after all, we don't commemorate Tojo with a statue at Pearl Harbor. But what is a narrative US governments can write now that everyone, across all the many demographics that make up our nation, will consent to? In the case of public monuments, I cannot imagine any subjects that could unite the US today or in the near future. Just yesterday, protesters tore down the bust of Ulysses S Grant in Golden Gate Park; statues of Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt offend racial sensitivities; name a President from Washington to Trump, and someone will rage at their manifold evils. You can argue that that's all for the best, as every leader of US government has a lot of blood on their hands. But I find that troubling: you can simultaneously recognize that people have a mixed legacy while also celebrating their accomplishments. And there's a fair bit of hypocrisy in the style of critique as well: many progressive heroes themselves have mixed legacies, but for some reason I doubt many of the statue-topplers today would applaud someone vandalizing statues of white supremacist Elizabeth Cady Stanton (though who knows; today's hero is tomorrow's unperson), to say nothing of other more polarizing cases like Angela Davis. Perhaps relinquishing the use of history to build a sense of an American nation is the only way to go. But I guarantee that giving up our imagined community of "America" will be deadly to progressive goals and racial harmony.

jacobush 6y ago
I don’t understand what you are advocating.
- MichaelGlass 6y ago
  I don't think there's a specific call to action / advocacy, more philosophizing about the challenge. tldr; Human beings are flawed. All our heroes have some amount of blood on their hands. If we start toppling statues we won't have any more statues. Maybe it's good that we stop putting people on pedestals, but without those pedestals what makes our creates Americans' shared identity / how do we work as a team? -- I guess I simply disagree. Some leaders have blood on their hands as a side-effect, and some have it intentionally. I'm a southerner. Southern revisionist history tries to attach pride to the crimes of our forefathers. Knock those boys down. For some heroes, I agree we need to be open to nuance instead of canceling the world. "This person helped with X, but we can't forget she also hurt Y". Maybe we should put our heroes ideologies ahead of their identities. Maybe the heroes should be the workers who built the systems, who we can more easily forgive for their flaws. Maybe our shared history and stories can be more about activities than the people that did them. Maybe our heroes are the identities rather than the individual, e.g. "The Pirate Roberts". But definitely, when a hero isn't supported by a significant part of its local populace, time to find better heroes.
- scarmig 6y ago
  Not advocating anything here. Just pointing out that every nation has heroic myths that the government nurtures, and those national myths make many (good!) things possible that wouldn't otherwise be.
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    Do national myths need to be heroic? When we started virus measures (lasting two months), the government didn't invoke William Tell, instead leaning on the spirit of "Unus pro omnibus, omnes pro uno." Two american songs that resonate most with my head-canon of the "American Dream" are: "Coat of Many Colors" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYAdKXzGtcY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYAdKXzGtcY "This Land" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRnHx3yVuf4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRnHx3yVuf4 neither of which are particularly statue-wise heroic. But it's been a long time since I've been in the States. What are some current national mythos songs there?
    - antepodius 6y ago
      I don't think you'll get an answer that. Everyone in the US who's sophisticated knows it's a mark of said sophistication to show aloof disdain towards 'the US'.
      - tclancy 6y ago
        That is a ridiculous take. It is also possible people with education can see the flaws in the US myth too. I love a lot about this country but we have all manner of fractures and do a poor job trying to impose a single vision on to lots of different experiences.
        antepodius 6y ago
        They see the flaws in the myth, and thus move to deconstruct the myth. As they go, people become less connected, have less in common, as the shattering of the dream spreads down from the academies through social leylines, leaving behind atomisation as it goes. You could describe the same process as 'late-stage capitalism'. Cynical detachment not unlike the death of god. The problem is, the flawed lie was at the base of what people had in common, and quickly-constructed replacements don't have staying memetic power.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
dkural 6y ago
History can be and often is a narrative. Otherwise, especially for the most recent centuries, we'd get buried in mountains of facts. However, some of these narratives are more true than others, despite whatever flavor of post-modernism they teach in colleges today. The Government/State sanctioned version of this is not a history, but a "founding myth", ie propaganda. There was a great exhibit at the German Historical Museum of how countries had to invent a whitewashed version of their countries past after WWII: https://www.dhm.de/archiv/ausstellungen/mythen/english/ https://www.dhm.de/archiv/ausstellungen/mythen/english/ The book is well worth reading as well. Acknowledging the complexity of American history does not mean giving up on an imagined community of America. In fact, doing so is the only way to heal the nation and enlarge that imagined community to include those who've been erased out of that history.

jacobush 6y ago

I don’t understand what you are advocating.

MichaelGlass 6y ago
I don't think there's a specific call to action / advocacy, more philosophizing about the challenge. tldr; Human beings are flawed. All our heroes have some amount of blood on their hands. If we start toppling statues we won't have any more statues. Maybe it's good that we stop putting people on pedestals, but without those pedestals what makes our creates Americans' shared identity / how do we work as a team? -- I guess I simply disagree. Some leaders have blood on their hands as a side-effect, and some have it intentionally. I'm a southerner. Southern revisionist history tries to attach pride to the crimes of our forefathers. Knock those boys down. For some heroes, I agree we need to be open to nuance instead of canceling the world. "This person helped with X, but we can't forget she also hurt Y". Maybe we should put our heroes ideologies ahead of their identities. Maybe the heroes should be the workers who built the systems, who we can more easily forgive for their flaws. Maybe our shared history and stories can be more about activities than the people that did them. Maybe our heroes are the identities rather than the individual, e.g. "The Pirate Roberts". But definitely, when a hero isn't supported by a significant part of its local populace, time to find better heroes.
scarmig 6y ago
Not advocating anything here. Just pointing out that every nation has heroic myths that the government nurtures, and those national myths make many (good!) things possible that wouldn't otherwise be.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  Do national myths need to be heroic? When we started virus measures (lasting two months), the government didn't invoke William Tell, instead leaning on the spirit of "Unus pro omnibus, omnes pro uno." Two american songs that resonate most with my head-canon of the "American Dream" are: "Coat of Many Colors" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYAdKXzGtcY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYAdKXzGtcY "This Land" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRnHx3yVuf4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRnHx3yVuf4 neither of which are particularly statue-wise heroic. But it's been a long time since I've been in the States. What are some current national mythos songs there?
  - antepodius 6y ago
    I don't think you'll get an answer that. Everyone in the US who's sophisticated knows it's a mark of said sophistication to show aloof disdain towards 'the US'.
    - tclancy 6y ago
      That is a ridiculous take. It is also possible people with education can see the flaws in the US myth too. I love a lot about this country but we have all manner of fractures and do a poor job trying to impose a single vision on to lots of different experiences.
      - antepodius 6y ago
        They see the flaws in the myth, and thus move to deconstruct the myth. As they go, people become less connected, have less in common, as the shattering of the dream spreads down from the academies through social leylines, leaving behind atomisation as it goes. You could describe the same process as 'late-stage capitalism'. Cynical detachment not unlike the death of god. The problem is, the flawed lie was at the base of what people had in common, and quickly-constructed replacements don't have staying memetic power.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

dkural 6y ago

History can be and often is a narrative. Otherwise, especially for the most recent centuries, we'd get buried in mountains of facts. However, some of these narratives are more true than others, despite whatever flavor of post-modernism they teach in colleges today. The Government/State sanctioned version of this is not a history, but a "founding myth", ie propaganda. There was a great exhibit at the German Historical Museum of how countries had to invent a whitewashed version of their countries past after WWII: https://www.dhm.de/archiv/ausstellungen/mythen/english/ https://www.dhm.de/archiv/ausstellungen/mythen/english/ The book is well worth reading as well. Acknowledging the complexity of American history does not mean giving up on an imagined community of America. In fact, doing so is the only way to heal the nation and enlarge that imagined community to include those who've been erased out of that history.