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I avoid wireless because of EMF sensitivity that my wife has. Just to be sure, I've secretly switched on the wifi some days to see if she mentions any symptoms

I avoid wireless because of EMF sensitivity that my wife has. Just to be sure, I've secretly switched on the wifi some days to see if she mentions any symptoms and definitely she does. I personally haven't felt a difference, but it is fun running a wired network - switches all throughout the house and gave me the motivation to set up Pi Hole and a print server.

ZeljkoS 6y ago
Here we go again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_hypersensitivity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_hypersensitivi... "The majority of provocation trials to date have found that such claimants are unable to distinguish between exposure and non-exposure to electromagnetic fields. A systematic review of medical research in 2011 found no convincing scientific evidence for symptoms being caused by electromagnetic fields. Since then, several double-blind experiments have shown that people who report electromagnetic hypersensitivity are unable to detect the presence of electromagnetic fields and are as likely to report ill health following a sham exposure as they are following exposure to genuine electromagnetic fields, suggesting the cause in these cases to be the nocebo effect." Wikipedia article has links to scientific studies.
- triyambakam 6y ago
  Eh, I don't really care. I am not harming anyone by offering this for her. If she feels better and I have fun then it's a good time.
  - gspr 6y ago
    > I am not harming anyone by offering this for her. If she feels better and I have fun then it's a good time. Some would say you're harming your wife's understanding of reality, but that's a private matter for you and her. However, by sharing it on the Internet, you are potentially spreading this bullshit, and you must expect reasonable voices to counter your claim.
    - minerjoe 6y ago
      Reasonable voices would not be so quick to comdemn. Please try to understand that we are just beginning to discover the non-thermal effects of electromagnetic fields, and the science is not looking too good for the wireless industry, which will fight tooth and nail to discredit any findings that would cut into their billions. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323998588_Wi-Fi_is_an_important_threat_to_human_health https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323998588_Wi-Fi_is_... Wi-Fi is an important threat to human health https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305691437_Electromagnetic_Fields_Act_Similarly_in_Plants_as_in_Animals_Probable_Activation_of_Calcium_Channels_via_Their_Voltage_Sensor https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305691437_Electroma... Electromagnetic Fields Act Similarly in Plants as in Animals: Probable Activation of Calcium Channels via Their Voltage Sensor https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283017154_How_to_Approach_the_Challenge_of_Minimizing_Non-Thermal_Health_Effects_of_Microwave_Radiation_from_Electrical_Devices" https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283017154_How_to_Ap... How to Approach the Challenge of Minimizing Non-Thermal Health Effects of Microwave Radiation from Electrical Devices
      - gspr 6y ago
        > https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323998588_Wi-Fi_is_.. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323998588_Wi-Fi_is_.... > > Wi-Fi is an important threat to human health Pall's methodology and understanding of EM has been critized broadly and repeatedly. Here's an "official" rebuttal to the paper you cite: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328436881_Response_to_Pall_Wi-Fi_is_an_important_threat_to_human_health https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328436881_Response_... The rest of the papers you cite are by the same highly controversial biochemist. At any rate, the discussion at hand is whether "EMF sensitivity" is a real condition. It patently is not. Anyone with such a condition would easily be able to collect the large monetary rewards that have been made available, and simultaneously immediately lift the social stigma they must feel. The fact that they do not speaks volumes.
        minerjoe 6y ago
        Yea, cherry picking, me. Note that the rebuttal does not refute Pall's biomechanical thories, or say that there are no non-thermal effects, but that we need more thorough research, and that this research is not being funded. The precautionary principal (ignored in the USA, it seems), would indicate that we should be cautious and not quick to dismiss.
- Krssst 6y ago
  One point I am wondering about is if the symptoms could be caused by an actual disease (unrelated to EM) that would need treatment, but is not because the affected person is convinced that the cause is EM exposure. However, I guess people usually turn to unproven treatments once medicine failed several times to treat their symptoms, so they likely already went to a regular doctor several times beforehand, ruling out any easily discoverable disease.
samMouret 6y ago
> definitely she does. That's not scientific. That's not a double-blind experiment. Your may be more attentive to her mentions when you've secretely switched on the wifi. You may behaving differently and she may be picking up clues from your behavior. etc. If you really want to be scientific, you need to do at least n=100 experiments to detect a 10% bias at 95% confidence level. (Z=2 E=0.1) [0] If you detect such bias, your wife may be able to earn $1M prize for her supernatural abilities. [1] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Checking_whether_a_coin_is_fair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Checking_whether_a_coin_is_fai... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Million_Dollar_Paranormal_Challenge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Million_Dollar_Paranormal_...
- randallsquared 6y ago
  > If you detect such bias, your wife may be able to earn $1M prize for her supernatural abilities. [1] This snark seems unnecessary, given that magnetoception by bats and birds is unlikely to win said prize.
  - samMouret 6y ago
    That's no snark. If she can reliably demonstrate sensitivity to -60dBm RF signals (nanoWatts - the typical received signal strength of a Wi-Fi signal), that's the equivalent of having discovered a new human sense on top of the 5 known senses. This discovery, or the explanation of mechanism underlying this sense, is worthy of a Nobel prize.
mbar84 6y ago
Sometimes when a persistent noise goes away I will realize that I've been slightly tense the whole time and all of a sudden I feel relief. Depending on what you mean by "switched on the wifi", could it be that there is some subtle piezoelectric noise that goes away when you turn of a device completely?
- sukilot 6y ago
  Indeed. I have sensitivity to transformer hum.
gspr 6y ago
> EMF sensitivity that my wife has No, she doesn't.
- triyambakam 6y ago
  Great, thanks for letting me know!
  - minerjoe 6y ago
    Triyambakam, please don't take these criticisms much to heart. Smokers were parroting the tobacco industries claims that smoking didn't cause cancer in their own ignorance. There may be a similar thing happening now with the wireless industry. We are just scientifically beginning to discover the non-thermal effects of EMF radiation. If these fields do cause detectable changes to the pysiology of human cells, there is reason to believe that your wife could be sensitive to these changes. Wi-Fi is an important threat to human health https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323998588_Wi-Fi_is_an_important_threat_to_human_health https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323998588_Wi-Fi_is_... Electromagnetic Fields Act Similarly in Plants as in Animals: Probable Activation of Calcium Channels via Their Voltage Sensor https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305691437_Electromagnetic_Fields_Act_Similarly_in_Plants_as_in_Animals_Probable_Activation_of_Calcium_Channels_via_Their_Voltage_Sensor https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305691437_Electroma... How to Approach the Challenge of Minimizing Non-Thermal Health Effects of Microwave Radiation from Electrical Devices https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283017154_How_to_Approach_the_Challenge_of_Minimizing_Non-Thermal_Health_Effects_of_Microwave_Radiation_from_Electrical_Devices https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283017154_How_to_Ap...

ZeljkoS 6y ago

Here we go again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_hypersensitivity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_hypersensitivi... "The majority of provocation trials to date have found that such claimants are unable to distinguish between exposure and non-exposure to electromagnetic fields. A systematic review of medical research in 2011 found no convincing scientific evidence for symptoms being caused by electromagnetic fields. Since then, several double-blind experiments have shown that people who report electromagnetic hypersensitivity are unable to detect the presence of electromagnetic fields and are as likely to report ill health following a sham exposure as they are following exposure to genuine electromagnetic fields, suggesting the cause in these cases to be the nocebo effect." Wikipedia article has links to scientific studies.

triyambakam 6y ago
Eh, I don't really care. I am not harming anyone by offering this for her. If she feels better and I have fun then it's a good time.
- gspr 6y ago
  > I am not harming anyone by offering this for her. If she feels better and I have fun then it's a good time. Some would say you're harming your wife's understanding of reality, but that's a private matter for you and her. However, by sharing it on the Internet, you are potentially spreading this bullshit, and you must expect reasonable voices to counter your claim.
  - minerjoe 6y ago
    Reasonable voices would not be so quick to comdemn. Please try to understand that we are just beginning to discover the non-thermal effects of electromagnetic fields, and the science is not looking too good for the wireless industry, which will fight tooth and nail to discredit any findings that would cut into their billions. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323998588_Wi-Fi_is_an_important_threat_to_human_health https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323998588_Wi-Fi_is_... Wi-Fi is an important threat to human health https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305691437_Electromagnetic_Fields_Act_Similarly_in_Plants_as_in_Animals_Probable_Activation_of_Calcium_Channels_via_Their_Voltage_Sensor https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305691437_Electroma... Electromagnetic Fields Act Similarly in Plants as in Animals: Probable Activation of Calcium Channels via Their Voltage Sensor https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283017154_How_to_Approach_the_Challenge_of_Minimizing_Non-Thermal_Health_Effects_of_Microwave_Radiation_from_Electrical_Devices" https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283017154_How_to_Ap... How to Approach the Challenge of Minimizing Non-Thermal Health Effects of Microwave Radiation from Electrical Devices
    - gspr 6y ago
      > https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323998588_Wi-Fi_is_.. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323998588_Wi-Fi_is_.... > > Wi-Fi is an important threat to human health Pall's methodology and understanding of EM has been critized broadly and repeatedly. Here's an "official" rebuttal to the paper you cite: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328436881_Response_to_Pall_Wi-Fi_is_an_important_threat_to_human_health https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328436881_Response_... The rest of the papers you cite are by the same highly controversial biochemist. At any rate, the discussion at hand is whether "EMF sensitivity" is a real condition. It patently is not. Anyone with such a condition would easily be able to collect the large monetary rewards that have been made available, and simultaneously immediately lift the social stigma they must feel. The fact that they do not speaks volumes.
      - minerjoe 6y ago
        Yea, cherry picking, me. Note that the rebuttal does not refute Pall's biomechanical thories, or say that there are no non-thermal effects, but that we need more thorough research, and that this research is not being funded. The precautionary principal (ignored in the USA, it seems), would indicate that we should be cautious and not quick to dismiss.
Krssst 6y ago
One point I am wondering about is if the symptoms could be caused by an actual disease (unrelated to EM) that would need treatment, but is not because the affected person is convinced that the cause is EM exposure. However, I guess people usually turn to unproven treatments once medicine failed several times to treat their symptoms, so they likely already went to a regular doctor several times beforehand, ruling out any easily discoverable disease.

samMouret 6y ago

> definitely she does. That's not scientific. That's not a double-blind experiment. Your may be more attentive to her mentions when you've secretely switched on the wifi. You may behaving differently and she may be picking up clues from your behavior. etc. If you really want to be scientific, you need to do at least n=100 experiments to detect a 10% bias at 95% confidence level. (Z=2 E=0.1) [0] If you detect such bias, your wife may be able to earn $1M prize for her supernatural abilities. [1] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Checking_whether_a_coin_is_fair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Checking_whether_a_coin_is_fai... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Million_Dollar_Paranormal_Challenge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Million_Dollar_Paranormal_...

randallsquared 6y ago
> If you detect such bias, your wife may be able to earn $1M prize for her supernatural abilities. [1] This snark seems unnecessary, given that magnetoception by bats and birds is unlikely to win said prize.
- samMouret 6y ago
  That's no snark. If she can reliably demonstrate sensitivity to -60dBm RF signals (nanoWatts - the typical received signal strength of a Wi-Fi signal), that's the equivalent of having discovered a new human sense on top of the 5 known senses. This discovery, or the explanation of mechanism underlying this sense, is worthy of a Nobel prize.

mbar84 6y ago

Sometimes when a persistent noise goes away I will realize that I've been slightly tense the whole time and all of a sudden I feel relief. Depending on what you mean by "switched on the wifi", could it be that there is some subtle piezoelectric noise that goes away when you turn of a device completely?

sukilot 6y ago
Indeed. I have sensitivity to transformer hum.

gspr 6y ago

> EMF sensitivity that my wife has No, she doesn't.

triyambakam 6y ago
Great, thanks for letting me know!
- minerjoe 6y ago
  Triyambakam, please don't take these criticisms much to heart. Smokers were parroting the tobacco industries claims that smoking didn't cause cancer in their own ignorance. There may be a similar thing happening now with the wireless industry. We are just scientifically beginning to discover the non-thermal effects of EMF radiation. If these fields do cause detectable changes to the pysiology of human cells, there is reason to believe that your wife could be sensitive to these changes. Wi-Fi is an important threat to human health https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323998588_Wi-Fi_is_an_important_threat_to_human_health https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323998588_Wi-Fi_is_... Electromagnetic Fields Act Similarly in Plants as in Animals: Probable Activation of Calcium Channels via Their Voltage Sensor https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305691437_Electromagnetic_Fields_Act_Similarly_in_Plants_as_in_Animals_Probable_Activation_of_Calcium_Channels_via_Their_Voltage_Sensor https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305691437_Electroma... How to Approach the Challenge of Minimizing Non-Thermal Health Effects of Microwave Radiation from Electrical Devices https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283017154_How_to_Approach_the_Challenge_of_Minimizing_Non-Thermal_Health_Effects_of_Microwave_Radiation_from_Electrical_Devices https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283017154_How_to_Ap...