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This was a beautiful read, thank you. A question always pops into my mind, reading about the effects of this kind of deprivation on children. At what age do lo

This was a beautiful read, thank you. A question always pops into my mind, reading about the effects of this kind of deprivation on children. At what age do love and affection transition from an inherent need to a frivolous want? From something it’s unconscionable for a person to lack, to something where Hollywood is castigated for conditioning people to expect it? Where is the developmental cut line?

andylynch 6y ago
I don’t think there is any such age, these are something we all fundamentally need to thrive.
DaiPlusPlus 6y ago
> Hollywood is castigated for conditioning people to expect it? Hollywood is (rightfully) castigated for setting unrealistic beauty standards and expectations for young men and women, and for misrepresenting how healthy romance and relationships work. Love is out there for everyone (...I hope), but a good chunk of our media influences suggest and imply that men should have an expectation that women will automatically find them as an attractive partner or reinforce that they’re somehow “entitled” to a sexual experience - these broken expectations form the basis of many (but not all) of the misogynistic anger that fuels the Incel movement.
- brabel 6y ago
  > but a good chunk of our media influences suggest and imply that men should have an expectation that women will automatically find them as an attractive partner or reinforce that they’re somehow “entitled” to a sexual experience... Why do you focus on men? It seems to me that all humans expect to be "entitled" to sexual experiences.
  - quintushoratius 6y ago
    No one is entitled to use another person's body for sex, or anything else, and it is improper to expect it. If you need sex, most people have at least one working hand that can take care of that urge for you. Humans are social animals, however, and have such a strong desire for love and friendship that lack of it, at any age, leads to dysfunction.
- Darmody 6y ago
  Hollywood and most industries don't set the standards, they use them to attract more people. Not everything we do/like/want comes from Hollywood, that's a stupid over simplification that some people use for their own peace of mind. The world is a very complex place where people prefer simple explanations to complex problems rather than admin they don't know. How does the media suggest that women will automatically find men attractive? My experience says otherwise. You have to be fit, have success in life, have money, have a beautiful smile, which is NOT what incels are. All these "requisites" for a woman to find you attractive can be explained also from a biological point of view.
  - eeZah7Ux 6y ago
    > Not everything we do/like/want comes from Hollywood, that's a stupid over simplification that some people use for their own peace of mind. This is also an oversimplification. The problem is that the movie and ad industries strongly reinforce and popularize and some standards. And export them to the whole world. > How does the media suggest that women will automatically find men attractive? My experience says otherwise. You have to be fit, have success in life, have money, have a beautiful smile, which is NOT what incels are. I agree and this is also part of the problem. Pushing some arbitrary standards onto men is also harmful. Unsurprisingly, a lot of people feel they insecure about themselves and angry about society. Sometimes this insecurity and anger fuels the sale of cosmetics, gym memberships, clothing and dubious "self-help" books. Sometimes it gets uglier. > All these "requisites" for a woman to find you attractive can be explained also from a biological point of view. Please hold on on the strong biological determinism. It's largely refuted by geneticists and anthropologist. Reality is way more complex.
- antepodius 6y ago
  Whenever I hear about 'unrealistic beauty standards', I think of how most people are obese.
082349872349872 6y ago
There's some prior work (in animal models) on when the transition occurs from critical need to inherent need. https://pages.uoregon.edu/adoption/studies/HarlowMLE.htm https://pages.uoregon.edu/adoption/studies/HarlowMLE.htm is probably enough of a start (monkeys ca. 1950). I dimly recall "imprinting" studies in other species from the 1970s.
petra 6y ago
It's hard to say love is a frivoulos need. Adults that are loved do thrive, usually. On the other hand, lonely people do suffer a lot.
projektfu 6y ago
IMO, the movies and shows aren’t conditioning people to expect it. The writers are writing way outside their experience and producing a mass genre of wish fulfillment. There is a lot of stalker-like behavior in love shows and instead of calling the cops the victim falls in love. Traditionally attractive personality and appearance traits are often turned on their head so that the writer’s avatar can get laid. Many female characters are written by men and it shows. Plus, if the script just imitated life, it wouldn’t be interesting. The result is that a lot of people probably feel like they’ve been had. They’ve been telling themselves that they can or should do things that scare away their love interests and end up with a relationship. They want to believe in a special soul mate for everyone. The reality is that sex and relationships are both easier and less fulfilling than they’ve come to believe.

andylynch 6y ago

I don’t think there is any such age, these are something we all fundamentally need to thrive.

DaiPlusPlus 6y ago

> Hollywood is castigated for conditioning people to expect it? Hollywood is (rightfully) castigated for setting unrealistic beauty standards and expectations for young men and women, and for misrepresenting how healthy romance and relationships work. Love is out there for everyone (...I hope), but a good chunk of our media influences suggest and imply that men should have an expectation that women will automatically find them as an attractive partner or reinforce that they’re somehow “entitled” to a sexual experience - these broken expectations form the basis of many (but not all) of the misogynistic anger that fuels the Incel movement.

brabel 6y ago
> but a good chunk of our media influences suggest and imply that men should have an expectation that women will automatically find them as an attractive partner or reinforce that they’re somehow “entitled” to a sexual experience... Why do you focus on men? It seems to me that all humans expect to be "entitled" to sexual experiences.
- quintushoratius 6y ago
  No one is entitled to use another person's body for sex, or anything else, and it is improper to expect it. If you need sex, most people have at least one working hand that can take care of that urge for you. Humans are social animals, however, and have such a strong desire for love and friendship that lack of it, at any age, leads to dysfunction.
Darmody 6y ago
Hollywood and most industries don't set the standards, they use them to attract more people. Not everything we do/like/want comes from Hollywood, that's a stupid over simplification that some people use for their own peace of mind. The world is a very complex place where people prefer simple explanations to complex problems rather than admin they don't know. How does the media suggest that women will automatically find men attractive? My experience says otherwise. You have to be fit, have success in life, have money, have a beautiful smile, which is NOT what incels are. All these "requisites" for a woman to find you attractive can be explained also from a biological point of view.
- eeZah7Ux 6y ago
  > Not everything we do/like/want comes from Hollywood, that's a stupid over simplification that some people use for their own peace of mind. This is also an oversimplification. The problem is that the movie and ad industries strongly reinforce and popularize and some standards. And export them to the whole world. > How does the media suggest that women will automatically find men attractive? My experience says otherwise. You have to be fit, have success in life, have money, have a beautiful smile, which is NOT what incels are. I agree and this is also part of the problem. Pushing some arbitrary standards onto men is also harmful. Unsurprisingly, a lot of people feel they insecure about themselves and angry about society. Sometimes this insecurity and anger fuels the sale of cosmetics, gym memberships, clothing and dubious "self-help" books. Sometimes it gets uglier. > All these "requisites" for a woman to find you attractive can be explained also from a biological point of view. Please hold on on the strong biological determinism. It's largely refuted by geneticists and anthropologist. Reality is way more complex.
antepodius 6y ago
Whenever I hear about 'unrealistic beauty standards', I think of how most people are obese.

082349872349872 6y ago

There's some prior work (in animal models) on when the transition occurs from critical need to inherent need. https://pages.uoregon.edu/adoption/studies/HarlowMLE.htm https://pages.uoregon.edu/adoption/studies/HarlowMLE.htm is probably enough of a start (monkeys ca. 1950). I dimly recall "imprinting" studies in other species from the 1970s.

petra 6y ago

It's hard to say love is a frivoulos need. Adults that are loved do thrive, usually. On the other hand, lonely people do suffer a lot.

projektfu 6y ago

IMO, the movies and shows aren’t conditioning people to expect it. The writers are writing way outside their experience and producing a mass genre of wish fulfillment. There is a lot of stalker-like behavior in love shows and instead of calling the cops the victim falls in love. Traditionally attractive personality and appearance traits are often turned on their head so that the writer’s avatar can get laid. Many female characters are written by men and it shows. Plus, if the script just imitated life, it wouldn’t be interesting. The result is that a lot of people probably feel like they’ve been had. They’ve been telling themselves that they can or should do things that scare away their love interests and end up with a relationship. They want to believe in a special soul mate for everyone. The reality is that sex and relationships are both easier and less fulfilling than they’ve come to believe.