6 ms·

If I am incorrect, I do apologize, but I assume you are not a person of color, or perhaps you come from a country in which you are the majority. I am a P.O.C,

If I am incorrect, I do apologize, but I assume you are not a person of color, or perhaps you come from a country in which you are the majority. I am a P.O.C, and these small things do set a bit of a tingle in my mind when I hear them. As a software developer, I cringe a bit to myself when I have to say terms like "whitelist" and "blacklist" or "master/slave" Obviously to you they may just be innocuous words, but think about what they represent: good vs. not good. Growing up in America, these terms hold a rather disgusting history -- and upon hearing them, I find it difficult to remove that context. I don't think this has any racist connotations, but it can and does make some people feel needlessly uncomfortable. It's a small change, and I applaud their efforts.

ARandomerDude 6y ago
White/black for good/evil predate American slavery by a few millennia. They aren't racial terms, they relate to light and darkness (as in EM radiation).
- distantaidenn 6y ago
  Consider this thought experiment: if you were a P.O.C., say black for example -- how would you feel growing up seeing that all things bad or ill are associated with the term that your people have been called. Blacklist, blackball, black magic, blackmail, and the list goes on. You might have never thought of these things, simply because it may not a part of your daily life. If we can fix this in even a small way: then why not?
  - ARandomerDude 6y ago
    I hope I would have the clarity of mind to realize that just because I have taken offense doesn't mean anyone has given offense.
  - wayneftw 6y ago
    I don’t think I’ve seen very many people that are purely black. Most of them look like they are shades of brown to me.
  - donmcronald 6y ago
    It’s fucked up how many people will be here arguing that everything black being negative and everything white being positive predates racism. Prepare yourself. I’ve read a lot of these threads lately and it’s really disappointing. The conversation instantly devolves into bullshit like that person in the GitHub issue claiming to be an orphan that’s offended by the term parent. I think changing contribution guidelines and being more cognizant of offensive terms going forward is an obvious win. I’m not really sure what to think about API breaking changes though. Maybe a comment in the code linking to updated guidelines would be a pragmatic solution that doesn’t require breaking changes. It’s probably got to be assessed case by case. What do you think of breaking changes?
    - lrpublic 6y ago
      - What do you think of breaking changes? I think it is better to apologise and acknowledge for terms that are offensive rather than erase them. While removing offensive 70’s TV comedy shows is probably a good thing to avoid perpetuating unhealthy stereotypes, preventing the use of 19th century literature is less helpful because we should not forget history.
  - dingaling 6y ago
    > If we can fix this in even a small way: then why not? Wouldn't a more straightforward and sensible solution be to stop referring to people with darker skin as 'black' since, actually, they're not that colour? And conversely 'white' skin isn't white. So let's get rid of that reference too. I'd argue that continuing to use black / white as racial descriptions is highly offensive because it originates in the era of institutional racism and slavery. Why perpetuate that attitude?
- lrpublic 6y ago
  True, but it is also true that slavery predates the colonisation of the Americas. (British cultural reference - What have the Romans ever done for us? Monty Python. - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7tvauOJMHo https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7tvauOJMHo ) But the issue at hand here is very important and should not be made lite of. The first time I saw documentation guidelines was while working for a large US software house in the early 90’s. This was a marketing led initiative, along with very specific instructions about correct use of trademarks the guide was prescriptive about always using female pronouns. Three decades later we still have significant gender bias in the industry but in my experience things have improved almost beyond recognition. In that time, attitudes to race, gender and sexuality have advanced significantly in the US and European corporations. I still come across unacceptable attitudes and language, but open sexism, racism and anti semitism is almost non existent. Sadly this is not yet true in some of the emerging market countries I’ve worked in. The use of language may or may not have contributed to this welcome change, but what was at the time called positive discrimination, a term that in itself is possibly no longer politically correct, did definitely draw attention to an issue that was otherwise not generally discussed at work. The conversation about pronouns has moved on too. My somewhat longwinded preamble does have a point, the language we use can make people think about issues they would not otherwise be aware of. I don’t know if the terms master and servant are generally considered acceptable, my guess is master/slave is predominant because it is meaningful, short and easy to spell and in itself is not racist language. I think that at least some of the corporate avalanche of support for the current protests is no less cynical and self serving than the political correctness in marketing of the early 90’s, but it will still result in positive change.
downerending 6y ago
> I don't think this has any racist connotations I have a really hard time making sense of this sentiment. You're stipulating that the words have truly no ill intent whatsoever, and yet you're happy that they're being banned? And beyond that, does this sort of thing really belong in the top ten thousand concerns of anyone, when it comes to making the world a better place?
whytaka 6y ago
I ask you in earnest: What do you think of the depiction of black clothes (eg. The Matrix) as badass and the depiction of white robes (eg. religious garment, angels) as signs of purity?
KayL 6y ago
I just googled what is P.O.C. (Assumed I'm right.) Then, I'm a P.O.C also. I don't have a bad feeling as you when I heard the word related to my color. (I'm not growing up or living in America) In my country, saying the color won't hurt others (that's not offensive words). But we know when or how to say the Color will hurt them (the Color word became offensive word). (I don't know how to tell you the exact example..long story) I'm trying to understand you. 1. Do you have any bad experience? for example, people pointed at you and say a color word hurt you. Is it very common in US? 2. If whitelist = bad; If blacklist = good will you have the same feeling? 3. Do you really think white/black list linking to master/slave, or just try to avoid it in the future? (because the society telling you not to say that) [educated to feel bad and deep feeling from heart, I think that's different) 4. When will you feel good (or no bad feelings) when you see the word Black / White (or your color)? (I will feel confused if your answer is never)

ARandomerDude 6y ago

White/black for good/evil predate American slavery by a few millennia. They aren't racial terms, they relate to light and darkness (as in EM radiation).

distantaidenn 6y ago
Consider this thought experiment: if you were a P.O.C., say black for example -- how would you feel growing up seeing that all things bad or ill are associated with the term that your people have been called. Blacklist, blackball, black magic, blackmail, and the list goes on. You might have never thought of these things, simply because it may not a part of your daily life. If we can fix this in even a small way: then why not?
- ARandomerDude 6y ago
  I hope I would have the clarity of mind to realize that just because I have taken offense doesn't mean anyone has given offense.
- wayneftw 6y ago
  I don’t think I’ve seen very many people that are purely black. Most of them look like they are shades of brown to me.
- donmcronald 6y ago
  It’s fucked up how many people will be here arguing that everything black being negative and everything white being positive predates racism. Prepare yourself. I’ve read a lot of these threads lately and it’s really disappointing. The conversation instantly devolves into bullshit like that person in the GitHub issue claiming to be an orphan that’s offended by the term parent. I think changing contribution guidelines and being more cognizant of offensive terms going forward is an obvious win. I’m not really sure what to think about API breaking changes though. Maybe a comment in the code linking to updated guidelines would be a pragmatic solution that doesn’t require breaking changes. It’s probably got to be assessed case by case. What do you think of breaking changes?
  - lrpublic 6y ago
    - What do you think of breaking changes? I think it is better to apologise and acknowledge for terms that are offensive rather than erase them. While removing offensive 70’s TV comedy shows is probably a good thing to avoid perpetuating unhealthy stereotypes, preventing the use of 19th century literature is less helpful because we should not forget history.
- dingaling 6y ago
  > If we can fix this in even a small way: then why not? Wouldn't a more straightforward and sensible solution be to stop referring to people with darker skin as 'black' since, actually, they're not that colour? And conversely 'white' skin isn't white. So let's get rid of that reference too. I'd argue that continuing to use black / white as racial descriptions is highly offensive because it originates in the era of institutional racism and slavery. Why perpetuate that attitude?
lrpublic 6y ago
True, but it is also true that slavery predates the colonisation of the Americas. (British cultural reference - What have the Romans ever done for us? Monty Python. - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7tvauOJMHo https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7tvauOJMHo ) But the issue at hand here is very important and should not be made lite of. The first time I saw documentation guidelines was while working for a large US software house in the early 90’s. This was a marketing led initiative, along with very specific instructions about correct use of trademarks the guide was prescriptive about always using female pronouns. Three decades later we still have significant gender bias in the industry but in my experience things have improved almost beyond recognition. In that time, attitudes to race, gender and sexuality have advanced significantly in the US and European corporations. I still come across unacceptable attitudes and language, but open sexism, racism and anti semitism is almost non existent. Sadly this is not yet true in some of the emerging market countries I’ve worked in. The use of language may or may not have contributed to this welcome change, but what was at the time called positive discrimination, a term that in itself is possibly no longer politically correct, did definitely draw attention to an issue that was otherwise not generally discussed at work. The conversation about pronouns has moved on too. My somewhat longwinded preamble does have a point, the language we use can make people think about issues they would not otherwise be aware of. I don’t know if the terms master and servant are generally considered acceptable, my guess is master/slave is predominant because it is meaningful, short and easy to spell and in itself is not racist language. I think that at least some of the corporate avalanche of support for the current protests is no less cynical and self serving than the political correctness in marketing of the early 90’s, but it will still result in positive change.

downerending 6y ago

> I don't think this has any racist connotations I have a really hard time making sense of this sentiment. You're stipulating that the words have truly no ill intent whatsoever, and yet you're happy that they're being banned? And beyond that, does this sort of thing really belong in the top ten thousand concerns of anyone, when it comes to making the world a better place?

whytaka 6y ago

I ask you in earnest: What do you think of the depiction of black clothes (eg. The Matrix) as badass and the depiction of white robes (eg. religious garment, angels) as signs of purity?

KayL 6y ago

I just googled what is P.O.C. (Assumed I'm right.) Then, I'm a P.O.C also. I don't have a bad feeling as you when I heard the word related to my color. (I'm not growing up or living in America) In my country, saying the color won't hurt others (that's not offensive words). But we know when or how to say the Color will hurt them (the Color word became offensive word). (I don't know how to tell you the exact example..long story) I'm trying to understand you. 1. Do you have any bad experience? for example, people pointed at you and say a color word hurt you. Is it very common in US? 2. If whitelist = bad; If blacklist = good will you have the same feeling? 3. Do you really think white/black list linking to master/slave, or just try to avoid it in the future? (because the society telling you not to say that) [educated to feel bad and deep feeling from heart, I think that's different) 4. When will you feel good (or no bad feelings) when you see the word Black / White (or your color)? (I will feel confused if your answer is never)