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Humans have to use and read the code. The word "slave" obviously doesn't mean anything to you, but is it not within your comprehension to see how it could be a

by sbarre 6y ago

Humans have to use and read the code. The word "slave" obviously doesn't mean anything to you, but is it not within your comprehension to see how it could be a painful word to encounter, in any context, for some of our fellow humans?

adrianN 6y ago
I believe that almost everybody who is able to read code is also able to understand that words have different meanings in different contexts and a RNG really doesn't suffer if it's a slave to another RNG.
- BolexNOLA 6y ago
  If you can’t see why the term “slave” might cause issues I don’t know what to tell you.
  - adrianN 6y ago
    I really don't see it. For example the term pet is perfectly fine when applied to a dog, but very questionable when applied to a human. Should we rename pets to something else?
    - sbarre 6y ago
      I don't know how else to put this but you really seem to lack empathy for your fellow human beings. You are turning people's real pain into a pedantic discussion about language and context, and ignoring the real-world context of this specific scenario. The tone deafness is astounding.
      - loopz 6y ago
        You wish to ban words, to what end?
        BolexNOLA 6y ago
        Don’t be that guy. You’re derailing the conversation. No one is “banning” a word. We are saying that a term should be dropped and a more appropriate one brought into usage. No one is “banned” from saying the word slave and no one is advocating for it.
        loopz 6y ago
        I'm not that guy, but it is a legitimate enquiry. This is currently about existing projects, old code, some of it even a bit "stale". What about new projects, are they to avoid these words too, and what would you call that? I wish the best to all blacks, queers, trans and minorities, as all voices are unique and important. But that doesn't mean we drop principles like liberty of speech and thought. If people are hurt, that needs to be addressed, and this (token gestures) just ain't enough. TL;DR Going PC is not going to solve the root structural problem. Feeling good about short-term, shallow fixes are overrated.
- bch 6y ago
  The RNGs feelings aren’t at issue.
- sbarre 6y ago
  It's not about the inanimate object that is being described, it about the human who is encountering the word. I can certainly think of other very objectionable and hurtful words that people don't want to encounter in any context.. I am sure you can think of some words too. Why is it so hard for you to understand that this particular word falls in that category for a large number of people. Again, it has nothing to do with context, it has to do with THE WORD ITSELF.
ShorsHammer 6y ago
Slavery is at all time highs and those in Western democracies who supposedly rail against such things benefit immensely from it. Removing a word from a codebase does absolutely nothing to help this. Most of the people claiming they are against slavery indirectly support it daily. Most coffee on Earth is made by unpaid forced child labour. Most chocolate production relies on the same. I'll put forward that the vast majority of people who claim to care about the usage of the word slave don't think in the slightest about the prevalent modern existence of actual slaves or will do anything to change it at their own expense. Words are cheap, slacktivism is cheap, taking personal responsibility and actively avoiding slave products is not. > Estimates of the number of slaves today range from around 21 million to 46 million[0] > Approximately 2.1 million children in West Africa "still do the dangerous and physically taxing work of harvesting cocoa". The report suggested that it would be an uphill battle to improve the situation. [1] > An undercover probe has discovered child labour at farms linked to coffee giant Nespresso.[2] > Uighurs and other minorities aren’t just being subjected to forced re-education — they’re being used as slave labor after completing their terms of “study.” > The ASPI estimates that up to 80,000 Uighurs have been forced into labor camps this way, some of them directly after finishing their indoctrination at Chinese re-education centers. The report includes three case studies focused on factories producing goods for Nike, Adidas/Fila, and Apple. A total of 83 companies have been identified as benefiting from these practices [5] Hopefully one day those enjoying a chocolate latte at Starbucks wearing designer clothes made by indentured workers while posting about slavery on their iPhone will see the irony. [3][4][5] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_21st_century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_21st_century [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labour_in_cocoa_production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labour_in_cocoa_producti... [2] https://metro.co.uk/2020/02/26/nespresso-exposed-using-child-labour-coffee-farms-12304386/ https://metro.co.uk/2020/02/26/nespresso-exposed-using-child... [3] https://labs.theguardian.com/unicef-child-labour/ https://labs.theguardian.com/unicef-child-labour/ [4] https://www.fastcompany.com/90279693/did-a-slave-make-your-sneakers-the-answer-is-probably https://www.fastcompany.com/90279693/did-a-slave-make-your-s... [5] https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/306909-report-china-sells-minorities-into-forced-labor-to-benefit-apple-foxconn-others https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/306909-report-china-sell...

by sbarre 6y ago

adrianN 6y ago

I believe that almost everybody who is able to read code is also able to understand that words have different meanings in different contexts and a RNG really doesn't suffer if it's a slave to another RNG.

BolexNOLA 6y ago
If you can’t see why the term “slave” might cause issues I don’t know what to tell you.
- adrianN 6y ago
  I really don't see it. For example the term pet is perfectly fine when applied to a dog, but very questionable when applied to a human. Should we rename pets to something else?
  - sbarre 6y ago
    I don't know how else to put this but you really seem to lack empathy for your fellow human beings. You are turning people's real pain into a pedantic discussion about language and context, and ignoring the real-world context of this specific scenario. The tone deafness is astounding.
    - loopz 6y ago
      You wish to ban words, to what end?
      - BolexNOLA 6y ago
        Don’t be that guy. You’re derailing the conversation. No one is “banning” a word. We are saying that a term should be dropped and a more appropriate one brought into usage. No one is “banned” from saying the word slave and no one is advocating for it.
        loopz 6y ago
        I'm not that guy, but it is a legitimate enquiry. This is currently about existing projects, old code, some of it even a bit "stale". What about new projects, are they to avoid these words too, and what would you call that? I wish the best to all blacks, queers, trans and minorities, as all voices are unique and important. But that doesn't mean we drop principles like liberty of speech and thought. If people are hurt, that needs to be addressed, and this (token gestures) just ain't enough. TL;DR Going PC is not going to solve the root structural problem. Feeling good about short-term, shallow fixes are overrated.
bch 6y ago
The RNGs feelings aren’t at issue.
sbarre 6y ago
It's not about the inanimate object that is being described, it about the human who is encountering the word. I can certainly think of other very objectionable and hurtful words that people don't want to encounter in any context.. I am sure you can think of some words too. Why is it so hard for you to understand that this particular word falls in that category for a large number of people. Again, it has nothing to do with context, it has to do with THE WORD ITSELF.

ShorsHammer 6y ago

Slavery is at all time highs and those in Western democracies who supposedly rail against such things benefit immensely from it. Removing a word from a codebase does absolutely nothing to help this. Most of the people claiming they are against slavery indirectly support it daily. Most coffee on Earth is made by unpaid forced child labour. Most chocolate production relies on the same. I'll put forward that the vast majority of people who claim to care about the usage of the word slave don't think in the slightest about the prevalent modern existence of actual slaves or will do anything to change it at their own expense. Words are cheap, slacktivism is cheap, taking personal responsibility and actively avoiding slave products is not. > Estimates of the number of slaves today range from around 21 million to 46 million[0] > Approximately 2.1 million children in West Africa "still do the dangerous and physically taxing work of harvesting cocoa". The report suggested that it would be an uphill battle to improve the situation. [1] > An undercover probe has discovered child labour at farms linked to coffee giant Nespresso.[2] > Uighurs and other minorities aren’t just being subjected to forced re-education — they’re being used as slave labor after completing their terms of “study.” > The ASPI estimates that up to 80,000 Uighurs have been forced into labor camps this way, some of them directly after finishing their indoctrination at Chinese re-education centers. The report includes three case studies focused on factories producing goods for Nike, Adidas/Fila, and Apple. A total of 83 companies have been identified as benefiting from these practices [5] Hopefully one day those enjoying a chocolate latte at Starbucks wearing designer clothes made by indentured workers while posting about slavery on their iPhone will see the irony. [3][4][5] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_21st_century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_21st_century [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labour_in_cocoa_production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labour_in_cocoa_producti... [2] https://metro.co.uk/2020/02/26/nespresso-exposed-using-child-labour-coffee-farms-12304386/ https://metro.co.uk/2020/02/26/nespresso-exposed-using-child... [3] https://labs.theguardian.com/unicef-child-labour/ https://labs.theguardian.com/unicef-child-labour/ [4] https://www.fastcompany.com/90279693/did-a-slave-make-your-sneakers-the-answer-is-probably https://www.fastcompany.com/90279693/did-a-slave-make-your-s... [5] https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/306909-report-china-sells-minorities-into-forced-labor-to-benefit-apple-foxconn-others https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/306909-report-china-sell...