6 ms·

You know, the problem with letting people's sudden emotions swing you back and forth without possibility of reasonable discussion is that some day it will come

You know, the problem with letting people's sudden emotions swing you back and forth without possibility of reasonable discussion is that some day it will come to bite you in the ass. That is, in terms of what kind of behavior you're incentivizing. In this kind of environment, people who raise even reasonable objections to questionable changes will be labeled as the enemy by fanatics. Like this guy. I don't know where he gets such a motivation to destroy or rewrite this corner of the world because he thinks it's his responsibility to stamp out oppression in C code. Which is about as far from the social problem as you can get. The list of words being considered as prejudiced include: -- parent/child -- whitelist/blacklist Some of this is really ridiculous. How are we to decide what terms are offensive enough? Vote? There are going to be objections at some level about any term, by someone out there. Someone needs to be an authority and say how much self-censoring is reasonable, and what terms are reasonable to keep. I object to the term SSL. It is a deep insult to my culture. We should rename it because of that. Who are you to question my being offended? Please let this issue not be determined by this guy or this ilk. Or at least, let this argument settle for a few months and see whether it still makes sense before getting caught up in the heat of the moment. Sometimes, time tells whether you were reasonable or not.

sbarre 6y ago
Here's an easy test: does it offend someone? yes? then consider changing it. "Is it offensive enough?" is a really bad hill to die on.
- fiblye 6y ago
  I think X is correct and Y is offensive, is what some people say. You’ll also find people saying they find Y correct and X offensive. Giving in without question that easily can result in others being offended. Sometimes you have people who’ll take a mile if you give them an inch. Some things are clearly offensive, sure, but if most people are asking “how is this even a problem?”, it’s not good to just change it because they say it bothers them.
  - sbarre 6y ago
    In theory, sure.. but we're not talking about "in theory" here.. Everyone on here tonight is hiding behind really dumb hyperbolic "what if"s, and it's pretty disappointing to see the tone deafness of it all. The word "slave" has a very real and very painful real-world history and baggage for a lot of people, and we should no longer be using it in our technical language. And this is not about condemning past actions but about taking the opportunity to do better in the future. Is our profession not about continuous learning and improvement? Why should that improvement only be technical in nature? No one is asking for carte blanche to blindly agree to any and all future changes without any thought or discussion. But this one should be pretty obvious to anyone who stops for a minute to think about it. Also saying that "most people don't see it as a problem" is part of the problem. That can't be the only metric. This is exactly the mentality that leads to disrespect and disenfranchisement of underrepresented parts of our community.
    - fiblye 6y ago
      That people are asking for the completely racially unrelated “whitelist” and “blacklist” to be blocked shows that people are already asking for carte blanche agreements to their desires without question. They’re trying to invent racism just because they need to be outraged. It’s not even a what if.
- dleslie 6y ago
  ... You do realise that "stupid" is considered an ableist pejorative, yes? Stones and glass houses and all that.
  - sbarre 6y ago
    Fair enough, I changed it.
- smbullet 6y ago
  This comment offends me, please consider changing it.
  - BolexNOLA 6y ago
    I get what you’re doing, but the fact that you’re “doing” something is a problem. Simply put: don’t be needlessly ridiculous.
  - sbarre 6y ago
    Tell me why it offends you and we can discuss it. If you're not being facetious, then I will edit it.
  - tekproxy 6y ago
    I'm offended by this run on sentence.
vore 6y ago
> I object to the term SSL. It is a deep insult to my culture. We should rename it because of that. Who are you to question my being offended? Don't do this. You and I both know this is just an example you're pulling out to take a controversial stance and doing a disservice to the people voicing their earnest concerns. You can feel free to disagree with them, but arguing like this is just... mean-spirited.
- patrick5415 6y ago
  Don’t do this. You’re pretending to know what the op is thinking, aside from what they actually said.
  - vore 6y ago
    You can't possibly be trying to argue that the OP actually does find the term "SSL" as abhorrent as some of the terms being considered, such as "master/slave", are you? That the OP legitimately feels this way and is not just pulling something out of their behind for the sake of arguing disingenuously?
    - BolexNOLA 6y ago
      God I feel like I’m on reddit with nonsense comments like theirs. It’s baffling how they can’t see why master/slave MIGHT be an issue and compare it arbitrary offenses.
- Ghjklov 6y ago
  Do you not find it concerning that OpenSSL indirectly promotes a Arizona street gang[0]? 0 - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=south%20side%20locos https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=south%20side... "Mind you, they are still a very dangerous organized street gang with crimes ranging from Assault, Armed Robbery, & Murder. Warning: Avoid S Chandler Blvd, & anywhere from west of Cooper Rd & 8th Avenue, between S Mesa Dr at night." This is INSANE. They have killed people. OpenSSL has blood on their hands.
  - 6y ago
patrick5415 6y ago
Man, I 100% agree. This PC crap is the worst thing to happen to humanity in the last 500 years.
- oxfeed65261 6y ago
  Enter Godwin’s Law...
- uniqueid 6y ago
  If you've only recently picked up this interest in History, hold on to your seat. You're in for a surprise.
- leereeves 6y ago
  No, but it's rather similar to many of the worst things that have happened to humanity. It's yet another attempt to rule through fear, by making people afraid to disagree, supported by people who seek revenge instead of coexistence.
BolexNOLA 6y ago
You had an interesting discussion going until the second half.
ikeyany 6y ago
I get keeping 'parent/child', but why is it so ridiculous to change 'blacklist'? It seems reasonable to not want to associate 'black' with 'bad/evil'. Thinking about how we use the term 'blacklist' doesn't seem like much of a sacrifice on our part. If you disagree, I would love to hear your logic.
- userbinator 6y ago
  It seems reasonable to not want to associate 'black' with 'bad/evil'. Is it? The term "black goods" is often used to refer to things like TVs, stereo systems, and HTPCs, because of what colour they often are, and that's not bad/evil at all. ...and are we going to start complaining about "dark mode" too...?
  - ikeyany 6y ago
    Thinking about a few terms that we use and then deciding "this term has no effect" or "this term reinforces prejudices" is not a great Sisyphean task. Not all terms that have to do with color are inherently prejudiced or exclusionary. Common sense can still reign while being honest about the etymology of our words. This is assuming you are asking in good faith, and not to trivialize and silence people who disagree with you.
- tekproxy 6y ago
  We should also change all of these doubleplus ungood words: Black market Black magic Black Sabbath Black widow Black soul Black sheep Black eye Black mark Black rider Black out Black box Black book I was triggered twice just typing this up.
  - ikeyany 6y ago
    If someone proposing using a better term than 'blacklist' makes you take an all-or-nothing reaction, it might be a case where if you have a hammer, everything you see is a nail.
    - 6y ago
zzo38computer 6y ago
I don't question if someone gets offended because that is their right, but we can't change everything which is offensive because some things someone will always hate, no matter what. But, there is another reason to object to the term SSL, as I will mention below: I don't like this term "SSL". It is not SSL. It is TLS. The author of OpenSSL (or whatever other program) can change the program if they want to do; I am not objecting to that. Whether or not it is a good idea to change it is a different question, of course. (I also don't like the term "tonne". Not due to being offensive; I don't want to complain just because I find a word offensive. But, because I think "megagram" is better, instead.)
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

sbarre 6y ago

Here's an easy test: does it offend someone? yes? then consider changing it. "Is it offensive enough?" is a really bad hill to die on.

fiblye 6y ago
I think X is correct and Y is offensive, is what some people say. You’ll also find people saying they find Y correct and X offensive. Giving in without question that easily can result in others being offended. Sometimes you have people who’ll take a mile if you give them an inch. Some things are clearly offensive, sure, but if most people are asking “how is this even a problem?”, it’s not good to just change it because they say it bothers them.
- sbarre 6y ago
  In theory, sure.. but we're not talking about "in theory" here.. Everyone on here tonight is hiding behind really dumb hyperbolic "what if"s, and it's pretty disappointing to see the tone deafness of it all. The word "slave" has a very real and very painful real-world history and baggage for a lot of people, and we should no longer be using it in our technical language. And this is not about condemning past actions but about taking the opportunity to do better in the future. Is our profession not about continuous learning and improvement? Why should that improvement only be technical in nature? No one is asking for carte blanche to blindly agree to any and all future changes without any thought or discussion. But this one should be pretty obvious to anyone who stops for a minute to think about it. Also saying that "most people don't see it as a problem" is part of the problem. That can't be the only metric. This is exactly the mentality that leads to disrespect and disenfranchisement of underrepresented parts of our community.
  - fiblye 6y ago
    That people are asking for the completely racially unrelated “whitelist” and “blacklist” to be blocked shows that people are already asking for carte blanche agreements to their desires without question. They’re trying to invent racism just because they need to be outraged. It’s not even a what if.
dleslie 6y ago
... You do realise that "stupid" is considered an ableist pejorative, yes? Stones and glass houses and all that.
- sbarre 6y ago
  Fair enough, I changed it.
smbullet 6y ago
This comment offends me, please consider changing it.
- BolexNOLA 6y ago
  I get what you’re doing, but the fact that you’re “doing” something is a problem. Simply put: don’t be needlessly ridiculous.
- sbarre 6y ago
  Tell me why it offends you and we can discuss it. If you're not being facetious, then I will edit it.
- tekproxy 6y ago
  I'm offended by this run on sentence.

vore 6y ago

> I object to the term SSL. It is a deep insult to my culture. We should rename it because of that. Who are you to question my being offended? Don't do this. You and I both know this is just an example you're pulling out to take a controversial stance and doing a disservice to the people voicing their earnest concerns. You can feel free to disagree with them, but arguing like this is just... mean-spirited.

patrick5415 6y ago
Don’t do this. You’re pretending to know what the op is thinking, aside from what they actually said.
- vore 6y ago
  You can't possibly be trying to argue that the OP actually does find the term "SSL" as abhorrent as some of the terms being considered, such as "master/slave", are you? That the OP legitimately feels this way and is not just pulling something out of their behind for the sake of arguing disingenuously?
  - BolexNOLA 6y ago
    God I feel like I’m on reddit with nonsense comments like theirs. It’s baffling how they can’t see why master/slave MIGHT be an issue and compare it arbitrary offenses.
Ghjklov 6y ago
Do you not find it concerning that OpenSSL indirectly promotes a Arizona street gang[0]? 0 - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=south%20side%20locos https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=south%20side... "Mind you, they are still a very dangerous organized street gang with crimes ranging from Assault, Armed Robbery, & Murder. Warning: Avoid S Chandler Blvd, & anywhere from west of Cooper Rd & 8th Avenue, between S Mesa Dr at night." This is INSANE. They have killed people. OpenSSL has blood on their hands.
- 6y ago

patrick5415 6y ago

Man, I 100% agree. This PC crap is the worst thing to happen to humanity in the last 500 years.

oxfeed65261 6y ago
Enter Godwin’s Law...
uniqueid 6y ago
If you've only recently picked up this interest in History, hold on to your seat. You're in for a surprise.
leereeves 6y ago
No, but it's rather similar to many of the worst things that have happened to humanity. It's yet another attempt to rule through fear, by making people afraid to disagree, supported by people who seek revenge instead of coexistence.

BolexNOLA 6y ago

You had an interesting discussion going until the second half.

ikeyany 6y ago

I get keeping 'parent/child', but why is it so ridiculous to change 'blacklist'? It seems reasonable to not want to associate 'black' with 'bad/evil'. Thinking about how we use the term 'blacklist' doesn't seem like much of a sacrifice on our part. If you disagree, I would love to hear your logic.

userbinator 6y ago
It seems reasonable to not want to associate 'black' with 'bad/evil'. Is it? The term "black goods" is often used to refer to things like TVs, stereo systems, and HTPCs, because of what colour they often are, and that's not bad/evil at all. ...and are we going to start complaining about "dark mode" too...?
- ikeyany 6y ago
  Thinking about a few terms that we use and then deciding "this term has no effect" or "this term reinforces prejudices" is not a great Sisyphean task. Not all terms that have to do with color are inherently prejudiced or exclusionary. Common sense can still reign while being honest about the etymology of our words. This is assuming you are asking in good faith, and not to trivialize and silence people who disagree with you.
tekproxy 6y ago
We should also change all of these doubleplus ungood words: Black market Black magic Black Sabbath Black widow Black soul Black sheep Black eye Black mark Black rider Black out Black box Black book I was triggered twice just typing this up.
- ikeyany 6y ago
  If someone proposing using a better term than 'blacklist' makes you take an all-or-nothing reaction, it might be a case where if you have a hammer, everything you see is a nail.
  - 6y ago

zzo38computer 6y ago

I don't question if someone gets offended because that is their right, but we can't change everything which is offensive because some things someone will always hate, no matter what. But, there is another reason to object to the term SSL, as I will mention below: I don't like this term "SSL". It is not SSL. It is TLS. The author of OpenSSL (or whatever other program) can change the program if they want to do; I am not objecting to that. Whether or not it is a good idea to change it is a different question, of course. (I also don't like the term "tonne". Not due to being offensive; I don't want to complain just because I find a word offensive. But, because I think "megagram" is better, instead.)

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]