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An interesting fact about learning to fly in Australia. All aircraft must be flown in (they can't be sent by ship). So these light aircraft are set with ferry

An interesting fact about learning to fly in Australia. All aircraft must be flown in (they can't be sent by ship). So these light aircraft are set with ferry tanks (bladders) and flown by island hopping. One notable chap from the airfield I learned is Ray Clamback. He ferried over 220 light aircraft from the United States to Australia over 30 years and ditched due to failures twice. https://www.smh.com.au/world/pilot-ray-clamback-takes-another-dip-in-his-stride-20041007-gdjvg7.html https://www.smh.com.au/world/pilot-ray-clamback-takes-anothe...

throwawaygh 6y ago
Really cool job, but.... dear god what a ridiculous regulation.
- paulgerhardt 6y ago
  Australia is the worst. Not only do you have to comply with performing all airworthiness directives but you also have to perform all service bulletins. Which if you’re not into flying planes - an air worthiness directive is like a recall - “hey we found this problem with this seatbelt randomly unlatching - you are not allowed to fly until you take it to the dealer to get swapped”. Which is fine and I don’t have a problem with that for non-experimental aircraft. A regular service bulletin on the other hand is like - “hey we upgraded the seats on the 2020 Honda Accord to premium vegan leather. If you drive a 2018 Honda Accord you need to swap out the seats for the 2020 model. Even if you just swapped out the seats for the regular 2019 vegan leather model 6 months ago.” Makes private aircraft ownership prohibitive for all but commercial operations. In the US one does not need to perform service bulletins but as a rule they’re good to track.
  - redis_mlc 6y ago
    Singapore is really touchy too. Seletar is the only airport in the world where I've seen every single little Cessna with new tires.
    - goblin89 6y ago
      I've been curious how airspace between countries is handled in GA, especially with city-states like Singapore or Hong Kong. Can one freely file a plan that crosses to Malaysia or China without landing there? Does it require visas or special permits? Otherwise there is not much where one can go besides the ocean, especially with those busy airports occupying much of the airspace that’s left over land.
      - redis_mlc 6y ago
        In Western law, intent is important, but Chinese culture uses strict liability. They don't accept excuses like, "Oops, my engine failed and that's why my plane hit the apt. building." Over Singapore, you're not allowed to overfly buildings, so you have to fly along rivers or marshes. For international flights, you're treated like an airline. US, Australia and Canada have a GA culture, but most countries cater only to airlines, and tolerate flight training for airlines.
        goblin89 6y ago
        > Chinese culture uses strict liability. They don't accept excuses Daily life in mainland China or South Korea gives such a different impression. “Oops, I was late/bored/tired/on the phone and that’s why I drove on a red light.” Now, Hong Kong does accurately match your description. (Personal anecdata.)
  - TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
    That doesn’t sound right. I am not a pilot, but I am an Australian living in Australia and know some folk who own aircraft. CASA doesn’t mention ”service bulletins” but does have a category called Airworthiness Bulletins and states: * An Airworthiness Bulletin is an advisory document that alerts, educates and makes recommendations about airworthiness matters. Recommendations in these bulletins are not mandatory.* A browsed some of the actual airworthiness directives and didn’t see anything about seat leather or such. https://www.casa.gov.au/aircraft/airworthiness https://www.casa.gov.au/aircraft/airworthiness
    - paulgerhardt 6y ago
      Section 2.3.1 https://www.casa.gov.au/file/138326/download?token=VRa6AR1O https://www.casa.gov.au/file/138326/download?token=VRa6AR1O CASA issued its own supplemental AD’s based on foreign AD’s AND SB’s. At the minimum looks like all alert service bulletins in addition to most non-alert sb’s. The chap I spoke to may have been technically incorrect with the all bit. If you learn differently I would love to know. I was incredulous when he told me but he insisted it was true and went on to say (in less polite terms) the current CASA leadership happened to be particularly aggressive in “looking like they were doing something.” As it stands, even this level is still tremendously onerous for private non-commercial operations by reclassifying every alert SB as a CASA AD and then requiring official CASA inspection. Rent-seeking comes to mind.
  - plantain 6y ago
    >Not only do you have to comply with performing all airworthiness directives but you also have to perform all service bulletins. Again, just not true. CASA is more aggressive than most other countries with maintenance requirements - their name (Civil Aviation Safety Authority) gives it away, their mandate is to increase safety and cost doesn't appear to factor into many of their decisions. I'm not defending that, but there is no requirement to apply all SB's. The particular gripe 99% of people are upset about is covered well by Mike Busch: https://blog.aopa.org/aopa/2015/10/09/assault-on-ga-down-under/ https://blog.aopa.org/aopa/2015/10/09/assault-on-ga-down-und...
    - paulgerhardt 6y ago
      Thank you for clarifying. Requiring all SIB’s, alert SB’s, but not all other SB’s is both better and worse than I imagined. Better in that this is less of a problem for new aircraft but worse as this is the quickest way to kill your general aviation community by targeting the guys in Cessnas and Beechcraft. The recent part 149 fiasco [1] can only be justified by self serving behavior - in effect allowing CASA staff to self administer medicals but not extending the same privilege to the general aviation community. Between the two I can’t see it anything but a compromised institution. https://aopa.com.au/part-149-a-corruption-of-casa-integrity/ https://aopa.com.au/part-149-a-corruption-of-casa-integrity/
    - paulgerhardt 6y ago
      Thank you for clarifying. Requiring all SIB’s, alert SB’s, but not all other SB’s is both better and worse than I imagined. Better in that this is less of a problem for new aircraft but worse as this is the quickest way to kill your general aviation community by targeting the guys in Cessnas and Beechcraft. The recent part 149 fiasco [1] can only be justified by self serving behavior - in effect not allowing the general aviation community to self administer medicals but allowing CASA staff to do so (in effect making themselves exempt) doesn’t sound like the actions of an organization which stands for Safety. Between the two I can’t see it anything but a compromised, self-dealing institution. [1] https://aopa.com.au/part-149-a-corruption-of-casa-integrity/ https://aopa.com.au/part-149-a-corruption-of-casa-integrity/
redis_mlc 6y ago
> All aircraft must be flown in That's very weird. For example, small airplanes get from the US mainland to Hawaii in shipping containers. Two Cessna 152s fit in one container, or one 172.
- mattmaroon 6y ago
  I’m assuming he means for some dumb legal reason.
  - redis_mlc 6y ago
    I realize that. I provided an example of how another distant island handles that to show what reasonable behavior is.
tzs 6y ago
Do the rules prohibit shipping the plane to someplace close to Australia, such as Papua New Guinea, and then flying from there to Australia?
slyall 6y ago
From previous discussions this is not the case. It is not illegal to ship an aircraft to Australia. See the link below talking about packed aircraft. Also some aircraft have short ranges that would make them impossible to fly across the ocean (even island hopping). https://fcbrokers.com.au/customs-clearance/aircraft/ https://fcbrokers.com.au/customs-clearance/aircraft/ However it works out to be cheaper for most aircraft since it is very expensive to take an aircraft to pieces and put it back together and then have it certified to fly. Reading a few forums there seem to be several factors decided if it is cheaper to ferry or ship. https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/384085-cost-importing-aircraft.html https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/38... https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/489061-overseas-aircraft-purchase.html https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/48...
- stevehawk 6y ago
  the issue is most likely the shipping and recertification process then. most modern planes, in general aviation, can have their wings "easily" removed. we're talking a handful of bolts per wing, disconnect a few hoses (fuel/air) and a couple of wiring harnesses.
  - heelix 6y ago
    It takes less than 10 minutes to attach or detach the wings on my experimental. Many of them are designed to fit into a trailer and be 'assembled' at the airport, and then hauled back home after. There are three bolts holding on the wing and one bolt for the control cable. Some day I'll have a house where my car gets to park inside the garage too. :) https://i.imgur.com/fanxM86.jpg https://i.imgur.com/fanxM86.jpg
looping__lui 6y ago
Btw, a number of really great books on the art of ferry flying: - Shark Bait: The "Misadventures" of an Oceanic Ferry Pilot - Rubber Suits & Lukewarm Soup: Surviving Life As an Oceanic Ferry Pilot - Air vagabonds
plantain 6y ago
>All aircraft must be flown in (they can't be sent by ship). This is just not true. I'm about to import my second plane by ship right now. It's no big deal. Incidentally, Ray taught me to fly (only ground school, he doesn't really fly any more).

throwawaygh 6y ago

Really cool job, but.... dear god what a ridiculous regulation.

paulgerhardt 6y ago
Australia is the worst. Not only do you have to comply with performing all airworthiness directives but you also have to perform all service bulletins. Which if you’re not into flying planes - an air worthiness directive is like a recall - “hey we found this problem with this seatbelt randomly unlatching - you are not allowed to fly until you take it to the dealer to get swapped”. Which is fine and I don’t have a problem with that for non-experimental aircraft. A regular service bulletin on the other hand is like - “hey we upgraded the seats on the 2020 Honda Accord to premium vegan leather. If you drive a 2018 Honda Accord you need to swap out the seats for the 2020 model. Even if you just swapped out the seats for the regular 2019 vegan leather model 6 months ago.” Makes private aircraft ownership prohibitive for all but commercial operations. In the US one does not need to perform service bulletins but as a rule they’re good to track.
- redis_mlc 6y ago
  Singapore is really touchy too. Seletar is the only airport in the world where I've seen every single little Cessna with new tires.
  - goblin89 6y ago
    I've been curious how airspace between countries is handled in GA, especially with city-states like Singapore or Hong Kong. Can one freely file a plan that crosses to Malaysia or China without landing there? Does it require visas or special permits? Otherwise there is not much where one can go besides the ocean, especially with those busy airports occupying much of the airspace that’s left over land.
    - redis_mlc 6y ago
      In Western law, intent is important, but Chinese culture uses strict liability. They don't accept excuses like, "Oops, my engine failed and that's why my plane hit the apt. building." Over Singapore, you're not allowed to overfly buildings, so you have to fly along rivers or marshes. For international flights, you're treated like an airline. US, Australia and Canada have a GA culture, but most countries cater only to airlines, and tolerate flight training for airlines.
      - goblin89 6y ago
        > Chinese culture uses strict liability. They don't accept excuses Daily life in mainland China or South Korea gives such a different impression. “Oops, I was late/bored/tired/on the phone and that’s why I drove on a red light.” Now, Hong Kong does accurately match your description. (Personal anecdata.)
- TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
  That doesn’t sound right. I am not a pilot, but I am an Australian living in Australia and know some folk who own aircraft. CASA doesn’t mention ”service bulletins” but does have a category called Airworthiness Bulletins and states: * An Airworthiness Bulletin is an advisory document that alerts, educates and makes recommendations about airworthiness matters. Recommendations in these bulletins are not mandatory.* A browsed some of the actual airworthiness directives and didn’t see anything about seat leather or such. https://www.casa.gov.au/aircraft/airworthiness https://www.casa.gov.au/aircraft/airworthiness
  - paulgerhardt 6y ago
    Section 2.3.1 https://www.casa.gov.au/file/138326/download?token=VRa6AR1O https://www.casa.gov.au/file/138326/download?token=VRa6AR1O CASA issued its own supplemental AD’s based on foreign AD’s AND SB’s. At the minimum looks like all alert service bulletins in addition to most non-alert sb’s. The chap I spoke to may have been technically incorrect with the all bit. If you learn differently I would love to know. I was incredulous when he told me but he insisted it was true and went on to say (in less polite terms) the current CASA leadership happened to be particularly aggressive in “looking like they were doing something.” As it stands, even this level is still tremendously onerous for private non-commercial operations by reclassifying every alert SB as a CASA AD and then requiring official CASA inspection. Rent-seeking comes to mind.
- plantain 6y ago
  >Not only do you have to comply with performing all airworthiness directives but you also have to perform all service bulletins. Again, just not true. CASA is more aggressive than most other countries with maintenance requirements - their name (Civil Aviation Safety Authority) gives it away, their mandate is to increase safety and cost doesn't appear to factor into many of their decisions. I'm not defending that, but there is no requirement to apply all SB's. The particular gripe 99% of people are upset about is covered well by Mike Busch: https://blog.aopa.org/aopa/2015/10/09/assault-on-ga-down-under/ https://blog.aopa.org/aopa/2015/10/09/assault-on-ga-down-und...
  - paulgerhardt 6y ago
    Thank you for clarifying. Requiring all SIB’s, alert SB’s, but not all other SB’s is both better and worse than I imagined. Better in that this is less of a problem for new aircraft but worse as this is the quickest way to kill your general aviation community by targeting the guys in Cessnas and Beechcraft. The recent part 149 fiasco [1] can only be justified by self serving behavior - in effect allowing CASA staff to self administer medicals but not extending the same privilege to the general aviation community. Between the two I can’t see it anything but a compromised institution. https://aopa.com.au/part-149-a-corruption-of-casa-integrity/ https://aopa.com.au/part-149-a-corruption-of-casa-integrity/
  - paulgerhardt 6y ago
    Thank you for clarifying. Requiring all SIB’s, alert SB’s, but not all other SB’s is both better and worse than I imagined. Better in that this is less of a problem for new aircraft but worse as this is the quickest way to kill your general aviation community by targeting the guys in Cessnas and Beechcraft. The recent part 149 fiasco [1] can only be justified by self serving behavior - in effect not allowing the general aviation community to self administer medicals but allowing CASA staff to do so (in effect making themselves exempt) doesn’t sound like the actions of an organization which stands for Safety. Between the two I can’t see it anything but a compromised, self-dealing institution. [1] https://aopa.com.au/part-149-a-corruption-of-casa-integrity/ https://aopa.com.au/part-149-a-corruption-of-casa-integrity/

redis_mlc 6y ago

> All aircraft must be flown in That's very weird. For example, small airplanes get from the US mainland to Hawaii in shipping containers. Two Cessna 152s fit in one container, or one 172.

mattmaroon 6y ago
I’m assuming he means for some dumb legal reason.
- redis_mlc 6y ago
  I realize that. I provided an example of how another distant island handles that to show what reasonable behavior is.

tzs 6y ago

Do the rules prohibit shipping the plane to someplace close to Australia, such as Papua New Guinea, and then flying from there to Australia?

slyall 6y ago

From previous discussions this is not the case. It is not illegal to ship an aircraft to Australia. See the link below talking about packed aircraft. Also some aircraft have short ranges that would make them impossible to fly across the ocean (even island hopping). https://fcbrokers.com.au/customs-clearance/aircraft/ https://fcbrokers.com.au/customs-clearance/aircraft/ However it works out to be cheaper for most aircraft since it is very expensive to take an aircraft to pieces and put it back together and then have it certified to fly. Reading a few forums there seem to be several factors decided if it is cheaper to ferry or ship. https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/384085-cost-importing-aircraft.html https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/38... https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/489061-overseas-aircraft-purchase.html https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/48...

stevehawk 6y ago
the issue is most likely the shipping and recertification process then. most modern planes, in general aviation, can have their wings "easily" removed. we're talking a handful of bolts per wing, disconnect a few hoses (fuel/air) and a couple of wiring harnesses.
- heelix 6y ago
  It takes less than 10 minutes to attach or detach the wings on my experimental. Many of them are designed to fit into a trailer and be 'assembled' at the airport, and then hauled back home after. There are three bolts holding on the wing and one bolt for the control cable. Some day I'll have a house where my car gets to park inside the garage too. :) https://i.imgur.com/fanxM86.jpg https://i.imgur.com/fanxM86.jpg

looping__lui 6y ago

Btw, a number of really great books on the art of ferry flying: - Shark Bait: The "Misadventures" of an Oceanic Ferry Pilot - Rubber Suits & Lukewarm Soup: Surviving Life As an Oceanic Ferry Pilot - Air vagabonds

plantain 6y ago

>All aircraft must be flown in (they can't be sent by ship). This is just not true. I'm about to import my second plane by ship right now. It's no big deal. Incidentally, Ray taught me to fly (only ground school, he doesn't really fly any more).