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Bullshit. They have the application process. You can ignore it. I did. I had shit grades in high school (not shit-by-MIT-standards, but actual shit). I took no

Bullshit. They have the application process. You can ignore it. I did. I had shit grades in high school (not shit-by-MIT-standards, but actual shit). I took no time to do homework, and instead spent time reading math books and programming. By the time I applied, I had done research at a reputable university laboratory (although I did not get to the point of publishing), and had a good recommendation from a well-known professor there. I had also taken several advanced math classes at a state school. I sent MIT a custom admission packet. I filled out their paperwork for biographical information, but mostly ignored it. MIT rejected me early admission. I called to ask why. They told me that they liked my packet, but given my grades, they were concerned about my maturity and my ability to work hard. I got an extra recommendation from a professor teaching the math class I was taking, whom I had asked to explicitly let them know that I was mature and a hardworker. At that point, MIT took me. I didn't even bother applying to Princeton, Harvard, Stanford, and the like, since I knew I had no chance. Optimizing for grades is a bad and stupid strategy. If you're late in the game (high school), it's the only strategy with a chance of success. If you're circa elementary school, the best strategy is to ignore school. The time with no homework will let you learn math and science (which you can do much more quickly than school will teach you), and to have real accomplishments by the time you apply. Real accomplishments ALWAYS trump grades, for anything, be it university admissions, jobs, or YCombinator. Grades are a proxy to see whether you are smart and can do useful things. Accomplishments are a direct measure.

brown9-2 16y ago
If you don't mind sharing how long ago was this?
- cypherpunks 16y ago
  About one decade. I'm still an MIT affiliate. Admissions has not changed, in this regard, since. There have been a lot of other changes (the students now are better rounded and better looking than when I was a student), but this is not one of them. MIT Admissions intentionally takes high risks. They admit a number of students at the extremes who may end up very bad or very good. The risks don't always pay off (we had a few real idiots), but the policy is actually quite sound. MIT's name comes from it's most famous graduates -- the Feynmans, Aldrins, Metcalfes, and Kurzweils -- the cost of having a number of bad or flaky graduates is rather low -- only the people who work with them ever hear about them.
deadmansshoes 16y ago
All well and good, but I'm not sure doing "research at a reputable university laboratory" and having "a good recommendation from a well-known professor" can really be classed as bypassing the academic admissions system.
- scott_s 16y ago
  It's not, but it's certainly outside of the "standard" sequence. The useful lesson to extract is if anyone uses one metric (say, grades) as a proxy for another (say, ability to work and flourish in a university environment), and it's possible to score points on the second metric, do so. Even if there's no official channel for it, that's what people really care about and they'll immediately recognize it as such. The reason that this sort of thing is so rare, I think, is that we don't know what metrics matter until we're well past the point of applying to something. Even if we're told, it's hard to overcome the expectation and pressure of doing well on the proxy metrics. For example, in college, I had no concept of what mattered for grad school: research. And even if someone sat me down and told me, I'm not sure if I would really understand it. It's a rare person that realizes it's even possible to obtain points in the metric that really matters.
  - hga 16y ago
    That said, it was MIT's experience back when the SAT meant something (pre-1994) that class rank (i.e. grades) were one of the two best predictors of subsequent success.
mattdeboard 16y ago
Unfortunately if I encouraged my daughter to ignore school and pursue something she's passionate about, Child Protective Services would be here in short order.
- zafka 16y ago
  Your daughter is lucky to have a parent with a good sense of humor.
  - mattdeboard 16y ago
    Thanks, though "good" is subjective. (Especially here on HN.)
- ekanes 16y ago
  I think "ignore school" is less about minimum mandatory attendance and more about where you put your heart.
  - mattdeboard 16y ago
    That's exactly what I'm talking about too. I didn't even think about attendance. There are a lot of busybodies in this world who will think nothing of trying to ruin your life, or at least make it temporarily miserable, if they don't like what you're doing. ESPECIALLY if they don't like how you're raising your kid.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
compay 16y ago
Props to you for your determination, hard work and perseverance. I think it speaks very well of your then maturity when you look at the way you approached what is, for most young adults, a very intimidating process.
ekanes 16y ago
"Grades are a proxy to see whether you are smart and can do useful things. Accomplishments are a direct measure." We've always used this type of thinking in terms of hiring but you've got it nailed in a sentence. Fantastic.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
narkee 16y ago
> I took no time to do homework, and instead spent time reading math books and programming vs. >I got an extra recommendation from a professor teaching the math class I was taking, whom I had asked to explicitly let them know that I was mature and a hardworker... These statements are irreconcilable. A hard worker does work that he/she is assigned, and does not make pre-mature value judgements on the worthiness of said work. Being smart does not mean you're a hard worker. That was a pretty irresponsible recommendation by the professor, considering you didn't exhibit the qualities you claimed to.
- tkahn6 16y ago
  > A hard worker does work that he/she is assigned Maybe. But a smart worker evaluates what's important and what's not. Formal education and learning are sometimes completely orthogonal to each other. You might be thinking "well, how do you know what's important?" and the answer is that it's a gamble and decisions like those are not for everyone. There is no virtue in simply doing what you're told and being passive in your own education.
  - narkee 16y ago
    The OP claimed that he procured a reference that attested to his "hard-workingness". It's perfectly ok to be a smart worker, and I don't disagree with your point. My point of contention is with the abuse of the reference system - what value does the reference system have if you simply ask for (and receive) character attributes you do not possess? So basically he was admitted on traditional merit, by misleading application reviewers.
    - tkahn6 16y ago
      Yeah I guess it depends how you define "hard work". Certainly spending hours reading math books and programming is some sort of work.
- JabavuAdams 16y ago
  > These statements are irreconcilable. A hard worker does work that he/she is assigned, and does not make pre-mature value judgements on the worthiness of said work. Nonsense. Work should always be in furtherance of some goal. I don't want to hire the person who does exactly as I say, even if it's a dumb idea in the larger context. What's important is reaching the goal (ethically, legally &c). While there are people who use anti-authoritarianism to justify laziness, that doesn't seem to be the case here.
tkahn6 16y ago
Yeah I agree with everything you said. I wish I had had the balls and/or forethought to do that when I applied. Kudos to you, sincerely.
bagelicious 16y ago
Woah, slow down here. Optimizing for grades is NOT a bad or stupid strategy, especially when you're young. By doing well academically, you put yourself in a position to do well in the future. Sure, pursue your interests and shoot for real accomplishments--so that when you're applying to college with those real accomplishments you don't need to explain why you didn't get good grades. It's just putting yourself in the best possible position to be rewarded for your work. Don't short change yourself. Do your best in school, but be pragmatic and work hard outside of it too.

brown9-2 16y ago

If you don't mind sharing how long ago was this?

cypherpunks 16y ago
About one decade. I'm still an MIT affiliate. Admissions has not changed, in this regard, since. There have been a lot of other changes (the students now are better rounded and better looking than when I was a student), but this is not one of them. MIT Admissions intentionally takes high risks. They admit a number of students at the extremes who may end up very bad or very good. The risks don't always pay off (we had a few real idiots), but the policy is actually quite sound. MIT's name comes from it's most famous graduates -- the Feynmans, Aldrins, Metcalfes, and Kurzweils -- the cost of having a number of bad or flaky graduates is rather low -- only the people who work with them ever hear about them.

deadmansshoes 16y ago

All well and good, but I'm not sure doing "research at a reputable university laboratory" and having "a good recommendation from a well-known professor" can really be classed as bypassing the academic admissions system.

scott_s 16y ago
It's not, but it's certainly outside of the "standard" sequence. The useful lesson to extract is if anyone uses one metric (say, grades) as a proxy for another (say, ability to work and flourish in a university environment), and it's possible to score points on the second metric, do so. Even if there's no official channel for it, that's what people really care about and they'll immediately recognize it as such. The reason that this sort of thing is so rare, I think, is that we don't know what metrics matter until we're well past the point of applying to something. Even if we're told, it's hard to overcome the expectation and pressure of doing well on the proxy metrics. For example, in college, I had no concept of what mattered for grad school: research. And even if someone sat me down and told me, I'm not sure if I would really understand it. It's a rare person that realizes it's even possible to obtain points in the metric that really matters.
- hga 16y ago
  That said, it was MIT's experience back when the SAT meant something (pre-1994) that class rank (i.e. grades) were one of the two best predictors of subsequent success.

mattdeboard 16y ago

Unfortunately if I encouraged my daughter to ignore school and pursue something she's passionate about, Child Protective Services would be here in short order.

zafka 16y ago
Your daughter is lucky to have a parent with a good sense of humor.
- mattdeboard 16y ago
  Thanks, though "good" is subjective. (Especially here on HN.)
ekanes 16y ago
I think "ignore school" is less about minimum mandatory attendance and more about where you put your heart.
- mattdeboard 16y ago
  That's exactly what I'm talking about too. I didn't even think about attendance. There are a lot of busybodies in this world who will think nothing of trying to ruin your life, or at least make it temporarily miserable, if they don't like what you're doing. ESPECIALLY if they don't like how you're raising your kid.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]

compay 16y ago

Props to you for your determination, hard work and perseverance. I think it speaks very well of your then maturity when you look at the way you approached what is, for most young adults, a very intimidating process.

ekanes 16y ago

"Grades are a proxy to see whether you are smart and can do useful things. Accomplishments are a direct measure." We've always used this type of thinking in terms of hiring but you've got it nailed in a sentence. Fantastic.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

narkee 16y ago

> I took no time to do homework, and instead spent time reading math books and programming vs. >I got an extra recommendation from a professor teaching the math class I was taking, whom I had asked to explicitly let them know that I was mature and a hardworker... These statements are irreconcilable. A hard worker does work that he/she is assigned, and does not make pre-mature value judgements on the worthiness of said work. Being smart does not mean you're a hard worker. That was a pretty irresponsible recommendation by the professor, considering you didn't exhibit the qualities you claimed to.

tkahn6 16y ago
> A hard worker does work that he/she is assigned Maybe. But a smart worker evaluates what's important and what's not. Formal education and learning are sometimes completely orthogonal to each other. You might be thinking "well, how do you know what's important?" and the answer is that it's a gamble and decisions like those are not for everyone. There is no virtue in simply doing what you're told and being passive in your own education.
- narkee 16y ago
  The OP claimed that he procured a reference that attested to his "hard-workingness". It's perfectly ok to be a smart worker, and I don't disagree with your point. My point of contention is with the abuse of the reference system - what value does the reference system have if you simply ask for (and receive) character attributes you do not possess? So basically he was admitted on traditional merit, by misleading application reviewers.
  - tkahn6 16y ago
    Yeah I guess it depends how you define "hard work". Certainly spending hours reading math books and programming is some sort of work.
JabavuAdams 16y ago
> These statements are irreconcilable. A hard worker does work that he/she is assigned, and does not make pre-mature value judgements on the worthiness of said work. Nonsense. Work should always be in furtherance of some goal. I don't want to hire the person who does exactly as I say, even if it's a dumb idea in the larger context. What's important is reaching the goal (ethically, legally &c). While there are people who use anti-authoritarianism to justify laziness, that doesn't seem to be the case here.

tkahn6 16y ago

Yeah I agree with everything you said. I wish I had had the balls and/or forethought to do that when I applied. Kudos to you, sincerely.

bagelicious 16y ago

Woah, slow down here. Optimizing for grades is NOT a bad or stupid strategy, especially when you're young. By doing well academically, you put yourself in a position to do well in the future. Sure, pursue your interests and shoot for real accomplishments--so that when you're applying to college with those real accomplishments you don't need to explain why you didn't get good grades. It's just putting yourself in the best possible position to be rewarded for your work. Don't short change yourself. Do your best in school, but be pragmatic and work hard outside of it too.