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Abuses such as this infuriate me, and I typically have a very low tolerance for them now. Any business that is causing trouble at my expense still gets one pol

Abuses such as this infuriate me, and I typically have a very low tolerance for them now. Any business that is causing trouble at my expense still gets one polite attempt to contact them via their preferred means and a reasonable chance to respond, but usually only one. I'm not hanging around on the phone for more than a few minutes or waiting more than a couple of working days for a substantial response to an online message. My next contact is normally now a recorded delivery letter sent to their registered address, which here in England is something any business with the typical legal structure must have as a matter of public record and where mail sent to it must be read. I set out my grievance, what I want them to do about it, and often at this point some compensation I want for the problem and/or subsequent trouble getting it dealt with, in a form that can become the start of a formal legal action if necessary. This strategy has generally been enough to get whatever the problem was resolved reasonably quickly and without any further messing around. I suspect this is because anything that turns up in that form and is potentially relevant to a real legal action automatically gets passed to the business's legal team to deal with. The legal team presumably then has both the awareness to recognise a legitimate grievance and the authority to do something about it rather than let it escalate. I don't like that this seems to have become necessary to get a reasonable response from a lot of large businesses today, but fortunately for all of us in my country, there isn't actually any obligation to play by the business's rules in a dispute if they're giving us the run-around.

derefr 6y ago
I imagine there could be a good business in the automation of the creation + address discovery + delivery of such letters. Like automated DMCA takedown notices, but C2B rather than B2C. “Pay a dollar to have our lawyers cancel a subscription for you.” (Even better if you really do have a team of lawyers willing to work on contingency to take these sure-bet claims to court if necessary—just their existence would be an extra layer of deterrence.)
- Silhouette 6y ago
  Maybe, but then the main point of having a small claims system is that a normal person should be able to use it with relatively little overhead and without needing to bring expensive lawyers into the situation. You do need to do a little homework if it's the first time you're thinking of making this sort of claim and as always you should make sure you are being fair and reasonable about trying to fix things before going all legal on them, but there's decent information about how to use the system available from the relevant government websites these days if you need it.
sipos 6y ago
So, this didn't help me with Virgin Media in the past (though I did get it sorted by finding someone relatively senior and bothering them until they got it sorted), but it usually does, as you say. In general, I don't allow companies messing me around to profit from it. Even if it takes longer than it is worth, I make a point of principle that I somehow get more back from them than I was cheated out of or they neglected to deliver. Usually this ends up costing them much more than just behaving reasonably in the first place. I find finding a way to do this cathartic. It isn;t always entirely legal though. If more people did this, it wouldn't be worth companies messing people around.
- Silhouette 6y ago
  Litigating on principle can be a losing proposition, at least if you value your time and money more than your moral satisfaction. However, in my experience it's true that if you don't take any nonsense but stand your ground and are willing to take legal action if it really does come to that, you often end up with some token compensation in addition to getting the problem fixed.
- thrwyoilarticle 6y ago
  I try the same but had to give up once. HarperCollins released a book series as a series of early Android apps. When the app launches for the first time, it downloads the assets. I paid for them and came back to read them several years later but the server was down. Reviews mentioned this and the official reply was to contact them for a refund. I did but multiple times but they alternated between ignoring me and refusing. Eventually I gave up. I no longer buy anything from HarperCollins.
Nextgrid 6y ago
Virgin completely ignored my complaint letter despite being delivered via recorded delivery, so even that isn't enough in certain cases. Cancelling the payment and explaining the situation to the subsequent debt collector (who was very reasonable and understood the situation) was the only thing that worked.
- Silhouette 6y ago
  It might not be enough to get them to stop immediately, but it's also useful for several other reasons. It is usually a necessary first step in a real small claims action against them. It's also evidence if you're dealing with a more serious case and want to take formal action over harassment, file for an injunction, demonstrate that the amount is in dispute to make debt collectors go away, etc. Basically, not acting properly on mail sent to your registered address will likely count against you in any sort of subsequent legal dispute. One thing that I've known several people to do (with considerable success in practice) is include a statement in that letter to the effect that sending that letter is free of charge, but any subsequent actions you reasonably take due to the company's incompetence will incur a clearly stated and proportionate administration fee and/or require compensation for any expenses incurred and other consequential losses. As I understand it, as long as you're reasonable in what you say you'll claim from them, this can be legally enforceable, particularly if the business imposes similar conditions itself as part of its contractual terms, which many do. Certainly I've seen several major businesses end up paying out a small amount of compensation in these situations when the matter was finally settled. This can also be helpful for getting a problem escalated to someone who can deal with it sensibly, because random front-line customer relations staff probably don't have the authority to incur expenses on behalf of the business.

derefr 6y ago

I imagine there could be a good business in the automation of the creation + address discovery + delivery of such letters. Like automated DMCA takedown notices, but C2B rather than B2C. “Pay a dollar to have our lawyers cancel a subscription for you.” (Even better if you really do have a team of lawyers willing to work on contingency to take these sure-bet claims to court if necessary—just their existence would be an extra layer of deterrence.)

Silhouette 6y ago
Maybe, but then the main point of having a small claims system is that a normal person should be able to use it with relatively little overhead and without needing to bring expensive lawyers into the situation. You do need to do a little homework if it's the first time you're thinking of making this sort of claim and as always you should make sure you are being fair and reasonable about trying to fix things before going all legal on them, but there's decent information about how to use the system available from the relevant government websites these days if you need it.

sipos 6y ago

So, this didn't help me with Virgin Media in the past (though I did get it sorted by finding someone relatively senior and bothering them until they got it sorted), but it usually does, as you say. In general, I don't allow companies messing me around to profit from it. Even if it takes longer than it is worth, I make a point of principle that I somehow get more back from them than I was cheated out of or they neglected to deliver. Usually this ends up costing them much more than just behaving reasonably in the first place. I find finding a way to do this cathartic. It isn;t always entirely legal though. If more people did this, it wouldn't be worth companies messing people around.

Silhouette 6y ago
Litigating on principle can be a losing proposition, at least if you value your time and money more than your moral satisfaction. However, in my experience it's true that if you don't take any nonsense but stand your ground and are willing to take legal action if it really does come to that, you often end up with some token compensation in addition to getting the problem fixed.
thrwyoilarticle 6y ago
I try the same but had to give up once. HarperCollins released a book series as a series of early Android apps. When the app launches for the first time, it downloads the assets. I paid for them and came back to read them several years later but the server was down. Reviews mentioned this and the official reply was to contact them for a refund. I did but multiple times but they alternated between ignoring me and refusing. Eventually I gave up. I no longer buy anything from HarperCollins.

Nextgrid 6y ago

Virgin completely ignored my complaint letter despite being delivered via recorded delivery, so even that isn't enough in certain cases. Cancelling the payment and explaining the situation to the subsequent debt collector (who was very reasonable and understood the situation) was the only thing that worked.

Silhouette 6y ago
It might not be enough to get them to stop immediately, but it's also useful for several other reasons. It is usually a necessary first step in a real small claims action against them. It's also evidence if you're dealing with a more serious case and want to take formal action over harassment, file for an injunction, demonstrate that the amount is in dispute to make debt collectors go away, etc. Basically, not acting properly on mail sent to your registered address will likely count against you in any sort of subsequent legal dispute. One thing that I've known several people to do (with considerable success in practice) is include a statement in that letter to the effect that sending that letter is free of charge, but any subsequent actions you reasonably take due to the company's incompetence will incur a clearly stated and proportionate administration fee and/or require compensation for any expenses incurred and other consequential losses. As I understand it, as long as you're reasonable in what you say you'll claim from them, this can be legally enforceable, particularly if the business imposes similar conditions itself as part of its contractual terms, which many do. Certainly I've seen several major businesses end up paying out a small amount of compensation in these situations when the matter was finally settled. This can also be helpful for getting a problem escalated to someone who can deal with it sensibly, because random front-line customer relations staff probably don't have the authority to incur expenses on behalf of the business.