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It is a legal problem. 70% of my housing costs are due to land costs, construction and taxes accounting for the rest. When zoning prohibits dense building, ever

It is a legal problem. 70% of my housing costs are due to land costs, construction and taxes accounting for the rest. When zoning prohibits dense building, everybody is forced to buy (or rent) more land than they need.

toomuchtodo 6y ago
> When zoning prohibits dense building, everybody is forced to buy (or rent) more land than they need. People don't mind. If you note, demand for suburban properties is still high. The more land you buy, the less density = better quality of life while also appreciating in value year over year. If people wanted dense city life, why are they fleeing metros now that they can work remote? https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/18/coronavirus-update-people-flee-cities-to-live-in-suburbs.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/18/coronavirus-update-people-fl... https://www.marketwatch.com/story/americans-are-eyeing-homes-in-the-suburbs-as-pent-up-demand-hits-housing-market-2020-06-17 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/americans-are-eyeing-homes... https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/12/new-york-exodus-suburbs-remote-working-pandemic-protests https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/12/new-york-exo...
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  > https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/12/new-york-exodus-suburbs-remote-working-pandemic-protests https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/12/new-york-exo... You're aware of how the pandemic uniquely impacted New York, causing 17,000+ deaths in the city alone, along with the massive lock down that accompanied them, right?
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    I am. If you want to have a longer look back period pre-COVID, here are the top 10 fastest growing counties in the US. Majority are sprawl (Texas, Florida, Arizona). https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2019/estimates-county-metro.html https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2019/estimate...
    - heavyset_go 6y ago
      Have a breakdown by age given that these are all popular places for retirees to move to?
      - toomuchtodo 6y ago
        Not from US Census. From other sources below. It's clear it's not just retirees, but folks fleeing expensive urban areas. https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2018/05/22/demographic-and-economic-trends-in-urban-suburban-and-rural-communities/ https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2018/05/22/demographic-and-e... (near the bottom) > Likewise, recent U.S. population growth also has been uneven. Urban counties have grown at roughly the overall national rate of 13% since 2000. Suburban and small metropolitan areas have grown more briskly. Rural counties have lagged, and half of them have fewer residents now than they did in 2000. > Suburbs growing more rapidly than rural or urban areas > About 46 million Americans live in the nation’s rural counties, 175 million in its suburbs and small metros and about 98 million in its urban core counties. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2018/03/26/us-population-disperses-to-suburbs-exurbs-rural-areas-and-middle-of-the-country-metros/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2018/03/26/us-popu... > Newly released census data for the first seven years of this decade signal a resumption of the population dispersal that was put “on hold” for a good part of the post-Great Recession period. The Census Bureau’s annual county and metropolitan area estimates through 2017 reveal a revival of suburbanization and movement to rural areas along with Snow Belt-to-Sun Belt population shifts. In addition, the data show a new dispersal to large- and moderate-sized metro areas in the middle of the country—especially in the Northeast and Midwest. If these shifts continue, they could call into question the sharp clustering of the nation’s population—in large metropolitan areas and their cities—that characterized the first half of the 2010s.
- darksaints 6y ago
  How do you know they don't mind? Have you given them the option? Cause I'm pretty sure there isn't a single place in America where people are allowed to build as densely as they are willing. In fact, the very existence of these zoning laws shows that people would be willing to live more densely than they are currently allowed to. They wouldn't exist if people didn't want it (you don't need laws to prevent density if nobody actually wants density). And the fact that they are fleeing looks a lot more like it is due to high costs than actual quality of life. I grew up in suburban America...it was boring as shit and I'm never going back. Literally the worst quality of life you could possibly present me with.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23588250 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23588250
    - darksaints 6y ago
      Okay, so far you've been parroting the same bullshit argument that some people don't mind. But that was never in question. There will always be some demand for suburbs. But there is obviously a shit ton of demand to live in cities, or we wouldn't have an affordability crisis. And for those people who live in cities, they do mind that zoning forces them to live more expensively. So quit with this "everybody thinks like I do" bullshit. That's just your own false consensus bias talking.
      - toomuchtodo 6y ago
        I’m a real estate investor, I’ve done my homework because I like to make money, not because this is my personal opinion. You’re entitled to to opinion, of course. There is urban housing demand, simply not as much as suburban demand.
        darksaints 6y ago
        So restrictive urban land use laws that increase people's cost of living and decreases their quality of life is something that benefits you financially. Got it. Thanks for clarifying the motivation behind your opinion.
- sershe 6y ago
  Your argument is self-contradictory - people are moving out of cities because they are expensive, which basically tells you everything you need to know about where the real demand is (suburbs are super cheap everywhere except SFBA). They are forced into suburbs where they can actually afford the otherwise less desirable (and hence cheaper) houses (or outskirts of the cities, I know tons of people who live on the outskirts of Seattle and Bellevue in WA because they cannot afford to live more centrally in either). And the cities are expensive because the density in American cities is still laughably low. We live in Seattle and we had to settle for a house because the kind of a condo that I want simply doesn't physically exist. Yes, living in a condo next to 2.5 restaurants in a middle of single family zoned area is worse than living in a house - but that's due to lack of density, SFH areas simply suck. The dense land is extremely scarce, so all they build there are overpriced luxury condos - they can get away with that because the demand is huge.
  - loco5niner 6y ago
    > people are moving out of cities because they are expensive Some, yes. Others because they want the space. I am SO glad I am not living in an apartment. I'm really enjoying my garden, not having to hear my neighbors, etc. > suburbs are super cheap everywhere except SFBA I wish!!! (Portland suburb dweller here)

toomuchtodo 6y ago

> When zoning prohibits dense building, everybody is forced to buy (or rent) more land than they need. People don't mind. If you note, demand for suburban properties is still high. The more land you buy, the less density = better quality of life while also appreciating in value year over year. If people wanted dense city life, why are they fleeing metros now that they can work remote? https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/18/coronavirus-update-people-flee-cities-to-live-in-suburbs.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/18/coronavirus-update-people-fl... https://www.marketwatch.com/story/americans-are-eyeing-homes-in-the-suburbs-as-pent-up-demand-hits-housing-market-2020-06-17 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/americans-are-eyeing-homes... https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/12/new-york-exodus-suburbs-remote-working-pandemic-protests https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/12/new-york-exo...

heavyset_go 6y ago
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/12/new-york-exodus-suburbs-remote-working-pandemic-protests https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/12/new-york-exo... You're aware of how the pandemic uniquely impacted New York, causing 17,000+ deaths in the city alone, along with the massive lock down that accompanied them, right?
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  I am. If you want to have a longer look back period pre-COVID, here are the top 10 fastest growing counties in the US. Majority are sprawl (Texas, Florida, Arizona). https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2019/estimates-county-metro.html https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2019/estimate...
  - heavyset_go 6y ago
    Have a breakdown by age given that these are all popular places for retirees to move to?
    - toomuchtodo 6y ago
      Not from US Census. From other sources below. It's clear it's not just retirees, but folks fleeing expensive urban areas. https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2018/05/22/demographic-and-economic-trends-in-urban-suburban-and-rural-communities/ https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2018/05/22/demographic-and-e... (near the bottom) > Likewise, recent U.S. population growth also has been uneven. Urban counties have grown at roughly the overall national rate of 13% since 2000. Suburban and small metropolitan areas have grown more briskly. Rural counties have lagged, and half of them have fewer residents now than they did in 2000. > Suburbs growing more rapidly than rural or urban areas > About 46 million Americans live in the nation’s rural counties, 175 million in its suburbs and small metros and about 98 million in its urban core counties. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2018/03/26/us-population-disperses-to-suburbs-exurbs-rural-areas-and-middle-of-the-country-metros/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2018/03/26/us-popu... > Newly released census data for the first seven years of this decade signal a resumption of the population dispersal that was put “on hold” for a good part of the post-Great Recession period. The Census Bureau’s annual county and metropolitan area estimates through 2017 reveal a revival of suburbanization and movement to rural areas along with Snow Belt-to-Sun Belt population shifts. In addition, the data show a new dispersal to large- and moderate-sized metro areas in the middle of the country—especially in the Northeast and Midwest. If these shifts continue, they could call into question the sharp clustering of the nation’s population—in large metropolitan areas and their cities—that characterized the first half of the 2010s.
darksaints 6y ago
How do you know they don't mind? Have you given them the option? Cause I'm pretty sure there isn't a single place in America where people are allowed to build as densely as they are willing. In fact, the very existence of these zoning laws shows that people would be willing to live more densely than they are currently allowed to. They wouldn't exist if people didn't want it (you don't need laws to prevent density if nobody actually wants density). And the fact that they are fleeing looks a lot more like it is due to high costs than actual quality of life. I grew up in suburban America...it was boring as shit and I'm never going back. Literally the worst quality of life you could possibly present me with.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23588250 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23588250
  - darksaints 6y ago
    Okay, so far you've been parroting the same bullshit argument that some people don't mind. But that was never in question. There will always be some demand for suburbs. But there is obviously a shit ton of demand to live in cities, or we wouldn't have an affordability crisis. And for those people who live in cities, they do mind that zoning forces them to live more expensively. So quit with this "everybody thinks like I do" bullshit. That's just your own false consensus bias talking.
    - toomuchtodo 6y ago
      I’m a real estate investor, I’ve done my homework because I like to make money, not because this is my personal opinion. You’re entitled to to opinion, of course. There is urban housing demand, simply not as much as suburban demand.
      - darksaints 6y ago
        So restrictive urban land use laws that increase people's cost of living and decreases their quality of life is something that benefits you financially. Got it. Thanks for clarifying the motivation behind your opinion.
sershe 6y ago
Your argument is self-contradictory - people are moving out of cities because they are expensive, which basically tells you everything you need to know about where the real demand is (suburbs are super cheap everywhere except SFBA). They are forced into suburbs where they can actually afford the otherwise less desirable (and hence cheaper) houses (or outskirts of the cities, I know tons of people who live on the outskirts of Seattle and Bellevue in WA because they cannot afford to live more centrally in either). And the cities are expensive because the density in American cities is still laughably low. We live in Seattle and we had to settle for a house because the kind of a condo that I want simply doesn't physically exist. Yes, living in a condo next to 2.5 restaurants in a middle of single family zoned area is worse than living in a house - but that's due to lack of density, SFH areas simply suck. The dense land is extremely scarce, so all they build there are overpriced luxury condos - they can get away with that because the demand is huge.
- loco5niner 6y ago
  > people are moving out of cities because they are expensive Some, yes. Others because they want the space. I am SO glad I am not living in an apartment. I'm really enjoying my garden, not having to hear my neighbors, etc. > suburbs are super cheap everywhere except SFBA I wish!!! (Portland suburb dweller here)