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You can look at the data, SV companies aren't paying H1B people low wages. Unless you think 200-300k is low wages.
by samfisher83 6y ago
You can look at the data, SV companies aren't paying H1B people low wages. Unless you think 200-300k is low wages.
- noobermin 6y agoIs this true? The argument I've seen is that H1B's are liked by SV because they can be paid less.
- rantwasp 6y agotechnically it’s illegal to pay H1B workers less than what you pay your workers.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- samfisher83 6y agohttps://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=Facebook+Inc&job=&city=&year=2020 https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=Facebook+Inc&job=&city=&ye... This doesn't include stock so maybe double that number for TC.
- pstrateman 6y agoOn the other hand. https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=STRATEGIC+STAFFING+IT+INC&job=&city=&year=All+Years https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=STRATEGIC+STAFFING+IT+INC&...
- lukeschlather 6y agoAll H1B salaries are public: https://h1bdata.info/ https://h1bdata.info/ It's possible (maybe even likely) that title deflation is happening, but based on my experience the salaries are definitely in line with the pay ranges for each job title (I worked at Amazon for 3 and a half years, so I have some first and second hand information on pay.) If nothing else it's a great resource to see the unfiltered payscale at SV companies.
- noobermin 6y agoThanks for the data. I see comments across threads on HN that say that H1-B hires are common. What is the incentive to hire them then? Are professionals in the US really that ill-equipped? I guess there is a bit of cognitive dissonance with FAANG complaining about no qualified workers but then FAANG only hired people who went to Stanford or Harvard and such.
- umanwizard 6y agoI worked at two FAANG companies and my degree is from the University of Arizona. I only met a few people there whose degrees were from elite schools. Where do you get the impression that they only hire people from Stanford and Harvard?
- paulgb 6y ago> Are professionals in the US really that ill-equipped? Americans are plenty smart, but they are only 4% of the world population. American companies compete on an international stage and not having access to the other 96% of talent would be a competitive disadvantage.
- on_and_off 6y agoI can maybe help here. Many SV companies are in constant need of more skilled engineers. Since the H1B visa can be transferred, when I arrived in the USA, nothing would have prevented me from going door to door and find a better paying job. Especially in the SV where there are tons of companies hiring. So companies have a good incentive to give you a fair salary. This is not true for all visas. In particular there is one visa (sorry can't remember its name off the top of my head) that is an "international transfer visa" : you work for one year for the company in a foreign country and then you can move to the USA while continuing to work for that company. It is pretty easy to get that visa but it is also very hard to transfer it to another company afaik. Hiring is also a bit broken in our industry. The thing is, it is often pretty hard to distinguish what makes a good or a bad engineer. This being said, there are just not enough skilled engineers in the USA. It would absolutely be possible to hire more local engineers and train them on the job but that would cost a lot of time for uncertain results. Companies prefer to hire engineers that can already be pretty productive from day 1.
- roskilli 6y agoThere are plenty of >200k H1B workers in SV, and I do believe these engineers and specialists will wonder how they can do their work elsewhere if they can't reasonably plan a few years into the future: https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=netflix&year=2020 https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=netflix&year=2020 https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=apple&year=2020 https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=apple&year=2020 https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=linkedin&year=2020 https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=linkedin&year=2020 https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=uber&year=2020 https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=uber&year=2020
- jaaron 6y agoMy anecdotal experience as a hiring manager in tech firms for over a decade: it’s not about money, it’s about quickly finding qualified employees. Unemployment has been (until recently) low. There wasn’t some large supply of unemployed, qualified engineers sitting around. Nearly everyone I hired already had a job. Expanding the search globally just gave me a better chance of finding someone.
- goostavos 6y ago>Expanding the search globally just gave me a better chance of finding someone At the price point you wanted. A pool of eager H1Bs reduces the need for companies on the same block to be competitive on wages.
- goostavos 6y agoI think it's more that they're fairly indentured. Their visa is tied to a specific _kind_ of work, they're legally prevented from making money in any other way other than their current job, and while they can change jobs, my understanding is it is generally viewed as risky (for instance, if the new place doesn't work out, you've got a few short months to find employment or your visa is no good and you have to uproot your life) It'd be really interesting to see data on how often H1B's change jobs compared to the rest of the population.
- umanwizard 6y agoThat argument is wrong. H1Bs are liked by Silicon Valley because they want to be able to hire the best people from anywhere, and not restrict their talent pool to 5% of the world population. All reputable Silicon Valley companies pay people exactly the same whether they are on a visa, have a green card, or are a US citizen.
- retortio 6y agoOne thing to remember is that in many cases H1-B workers are brought over by sponsoring companies which take a huge cut (I know cases of 40% or more) out of their salaries for the service of securing them the Visa. So those salaries might appear to be a certain number but the workers themselves may actually receive significantly less while some rent seeking company stashes the differences. I know for a fact that in my industry (not in SV) H1-B wages are lower, going off both public data and conversations I've had with H1-B coworkers, many who I consider my friends. As a side note, I don't blame H1-B workers at all for coming here. They're generally great developers and great people.
- fredfoobar 6y agoI'm sorry to break it to you, if your company isn't paying prevailing wages, they're doing something illegal. They need to be shut-down, not the whole fucking program.
- beervirus 6y agoWhy would that be illegal?
- fredfoobar 6y agoSee my other response in this thread.
- tracer4201 6y agoThere’s nothing illegal going on here. I posted earlier that I was at an oil and gas company in Houston, a Fortune 10 company at the time. We had IT contractors from Larsen and Toubro. As an example, one guy who reported to me was paid < $20 an hour after L&TI and another contracting company in the middle took their cut. He wasn’t thrilled with that situation but his other option was to quit and go back to India. The worst part was I couldn’t hire him directly because of his contract. He wasn’t allowed to quit and directly work for us. Kind of live slavery.
- 6y ago
- ntsplnkv2 6y agoHonestly it's not the SV companies. It's the body shop consulting firms.
- fredfoobar 6y agoExactly, shut them down, American interests will be protected. Most of the folks getting on the H1-B have a masters degree in an American university, if they are in SV, it's usually a top-tier one. I've personally made some of the best hires on-campus.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- damnyou 6y agoI know people on H1s who make 500k to a million dollars per year at FAANG.
- tracer4201 6y agoI’d love to see comprehensive data on this. I worked at a fortune 10 oil and gas company in Houston. We had onshore contractors across a range, but I know a few of them made less than $18 an hour. The rest that we paid went to two different contracting companies.
- tinyhouse 6y agoSalary is not even the issue. The main issue is the employment restrictions. Instead of making H1-B a visa that lets an individual full freedom (like green card), it's tied to an employer and moving jobs is not that easy, and many employers also sponsor for green card, which is another process that can take years and make it harder to move. During this time the employee has little leverage asking for promo or raises. (promo and raises usually appear after the green card..) Once you let employees freedom, the market will take care of the salary. I also understand that employers invest in the visa application and relocation of people, so it should be fair to them as well. This can solved by having a period (1-year is pretty reasonable) that prohibits new visa holders from moving companies.
- OzzyB 6y agoFunny how ppl don't like to mention this and just focus on H1Bs getting paid "market rates". It's almost like the SV's previous gentleman agreement of non-poaching got replaced with "hey, let's use H1Bs, sure we might have to pay near market rates, but at least we can tie them down for at least 3/5 years without any option of leaving".
- triceratops 6y agoH-1B holders can change jobs even without a green card. It's more of a hassle (takes 4-6 weeks) and has been made worse by this administration's repeated suspension of premium processing of applications. But visa holders aren't "tied" to their employers or "indentured servants".
- tinyhouse 6y agoI said it's not that easy, not that it's impossible. Also, H1-B transfer cost some money and involves lawyers, so some companies, like many startups, don't want to deal with that. The bottom line is that H1-B employees are at a disadvantage.
- triceratops 6y agoAgreed.
- hourislate 6y agoSV isn't the only place you find H1B's. Everyone from Toyota, AA, Sabre, etc in the DFW area has hired what seems like 1000's. There is hardly anyone but H1B's at Toyota in Plano from what I understand. I have heard some companies are laying of permanent staff and keeping H1B's because they're less expensive. Personal experience in my part of the world seems to suggest that it is cost. Permanent employees are expensive and H1B's are so terrified of losing employment they are willing to work around the clock and for less. I would like to see the whole program gone. I don't believe it is being used as it was intended.
- ojbyrne 6y agoAs pointed out in other threads, H1B data is public. There's precisely 1 H1B in Plano, TX: https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=&job=&city=PLANO.TX&year=All+Years https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=&job=&city=PLANO.TX&year=A...
- hourislate 6y agoI know of at least a few just from my office that are not on that site. Could it be that they are hidden through a contracting company and not hired directly?
- saradhi 6y agoYour presumption is either (if you not a h1 candidate) far away from the fact or don't want to accept the truth. You are looking at the top 100 companies and their full-time employees but not at the 1000s of vendor-employer ponzi scheme/scams that happen every day in the form of contractors who apply with fake resumes, take proxy interviews and outsource the assigned work to someone in India. Doesn't stop there, the dependents of those do a unlicensed food selling, baby sitting, work in local stores, what not. The hard to digest fact is the student who comes on F1 visa, succumbs to the pressure of 90 days period to get into a job to maintain the visa status joins a consultancy company, which starts the game. These consultancies market the candidate with high experience fake resume, arranges proxy candidate to take interviews, even Falsify the requirement of GC/citizenship candidate requirement - all these to charge the client a 100$/hr and pay a mere 40$/hr to the candidate through their sister companies acting as layers. A honest try from USCIS to do a quick scan in containing these will drop at least 50% of H1B lottery applications, void 30% of the consulting company licenses and also help the right talent to get an opportunity. If you are a gov/USCIS rep, drop me an email I'll be more than happy to provide more details, and possible ways of catching the wrong ones.
- throwh1b111 6y agoI think you have to separate H1Bers into at least 2 categories, {Indian+maybe Chinese, everyone else}. Source: am H1B bro myself. I'm from a shithole European country full of white people. The experience in the US has been very positive. People treat me nicely, both in SV and in rural Ohio. SV companies pay me equivalently to Americans as far as I can tell by asking around (for reference, depending on bonus/stocks my total comp is 200k+, which is not FAANG but above average for my position). Sometimes more for the same job. If I were kicked off my H1B, I'd just go back to one of the richest countries in the world and be fine. There's a smooth path to the Green Card for me, like for any H1B holder except Indians and Chinese. That's kind of where the crux is. As part of my job I've traveled to quite a few large enterprises that were not in SV, and often they have entire buildings full of 90% Indian H1B bros. I think 50%+ of all H1Bs are awarded to Indian citizens. There is a absolute cap on the number of Green Cards that can be awarded to citizens of any one country per year. In addition, India has about 10000 billion times the population of my shithole EU country. Subsequently, the wait for my Indian H1B bros to get their Green Card is now several decades (it is "none" or "a few months" for most others except I believe Chinese). So the indentured servitude is not due to H1B per se, but because of its interaction with the Green Card program for my Indian H1B bros and maybe Chinese H1Bers as well. As a shithole European I can switch jobs pretty easily. At worst, I have to wait a few years to finish the Green Card process, so the "indentured servitude" is limited to 2-3 years. It is up to individual companies to decide if they want to sponsor your Green Card, but all companies I'm familiar with in SV will do so for any of their H1B employees with no exceptions. This might not be the case for other companies. My Indian H1B bro co-workers are paid just as well and treated fairly. Of course, the SV companies can't get around the Green Card cap for them, so that's still problematic. But the companies I've seen do not abuse that fact. But the SV H1B experience is probably the exception if you look at the statistics. My Indian H1B bros at Certain Major American Companies You Almost Certainly Do Business With All The Time aren't treated nearly as well. They get thrown specs across the wall by managers (often Indians themselves), any response is silenced. They are often in physically different buildings or on different floors from the other workers. The work I did in SV felt creative, challenging, and I was always empowered to do my job as well as my American co-workers. But those H1B-with-no-path-to-residency farms seemed like authoritarian sweatshops. During one consulting gig with Bank You Most Likely Use Daily, we saw a guy get fired for accidentally pushing a private key to Github. The AC wouldn't get fixed in the H1B-building, so we worked in a sweltering 85 degrees all day. The restrooms were in despicable condition, getting cleaned maybe 2-3 times per week. For a remote call, I was offered a used pair of in-ear headphones with somebody else's ear wax still smeared onto them. I politely declined and bought my own pair. I would've quit this company after a few months. But none of the H1Bers there can do that, because of their legal limbo. To say that these folks are not empowered is a vast understatement. And I do think some companies are abusing this fact. It's a hard hole to dig out of now. I've seen estimates that if you were to remove the per-country-cap for Green Cards, the next 5 years worth of Green Cards would go entirely to Indian citizens. Is it "fair" that one country gets 50-70% of all work (not family) based Green Cards? Is it "fair" that an Indian H1B worker has to stay in legal limbo for 25 years just because other people from his country also want to immigrate? It certainly feels to me like the current setup of the H1B-Green Card pipeline has created pretty terrible conditions for a large percentage, maybe the majority, of Indian H1B holders, which is most H1B holders. Btw: I'm calling them my H1B bros because Indian developers are always super surprised to learn that I, a white guy, am on the same visa. We literally bond over our immigration status, which can be very helpful in consulting work. Maybe my first hint that the Indian H1B experience is different should've come earlier: when I first landed in SFO and went through immigration, the officer looked at my H1B and said "Oh, I thought that visa was only for Indians." And this is in SV.