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Very well put, as usual. The most important part for me is how both developers and users are unhappy with the current rules. Hey is the latest flavor of the co

by hrktb 6y ago

Very well put, as usual. The most important part for me is how both developers and users are unhappy with the current rules. Hey is the latest flavor of the controversy, but from the start I’m bitter I can’t buy Amazon ebooks directly from the amazon app. And it’s not like these rule give me more security, provide for the stability of the platform, or help me in any indirect ways. The kindle app still makes no revenue for Apple either way. Everyone loses, and that doesn’t help Apple’s image as it’s slowly crawling out of the laptop keyboard fiasco and this string of pretty flaky macos versions.

jdminhbg 6y ago
> And it’s not like these rule give me more security, provide for the stability of the platform, or help me in any indirect ways. In the case of Amazon, probably not. In the case of nearly all other apps, they definitely do. Having every fly-by-night game accepting credit cards to buy more tokens or whatever would be a usability and security nightmare. Even respectable apps I don’t want to give my credit card info to: I let Apple sit in the middle, handle security, and provide me a place to cancel with one tap. I understand why companies, especially big and responsible ones like Amazon or Basecamp, don’t want to use IAP. But a free-for-all would be terrible for iOS users.
- empath75 6y ago
  As a user I much prefer in app purchases and Apple Pay, but the fees they charge are clearly extortionate.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- yawboakye 6y ago
  My feelings exactly. I want a no-questions-asked unsubscribe option. IAP is guaranteed to provide that, not the individual apps I download. So even though the 30% share of revenue might look huge, being an independent trusted arbiter probably makes it worth it?
- Forge36 6y ago
  Why not keep IAP as an option vs credit cards? Let apps offer a credit card discounts. If it provides additional benefits to you: it sounds like you're willing to pay a ~30% more. Apple is passing credit cards cost on to app store vendors consumers for an additional upcharge. How much is it? Comparing the percentage cut on a credit card: If I can earn 5% (3% on food and gas?), I'd assume the store is pricing some of that cost into it's products. Apple's model of easy cancel, harder to steal should be something other companies could MITM. Paypal, Amazon, square, and Google offer similar payment schemes. (Venmo to my knowledge can't be used to pay businesses). I get the feeling Apple is expanding into this area with their own credit card. If the choice is a 30% fee or free and no credit card option, this feels like an abuse of power.
  - jdminhbg 6y ago
    > Why not keep IAP as an option vs credit cards? Let apps offer a credit card discounts. If it provides additional benefits to you: it sounds like you're willing to pay a ~30% more. This is already the case though, right? Apple's response to Hey specifically suggested that they could offer an IAP option in the app at a markup over their web-based subscription.
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      You cannot offer both in-app. You cannot even mention that you offer both and that the credit-card signup is on your website. If you go with Apple's in-app purchases, you must not mention any alternative methods of payment.
- hrktb 6y ago
  I agree with you, my preferred solution would actually be that Apple acts as a PSP and lets Amazon and other companies use IAP without the 30% cut (let’s say it stays at 3 or 4% for instance) My angle was just that taking 30% instead of 3% doesn’t do anything for me as a customer.
- SllX 6y ago
  Apple actually built a way out, but they haven't advertised it, publicized it, nor marketed it under these terms. They probably don't even want people thinking about it. I have not just one, but three active podcast subscriptions that I initiated through Apple Pay just this past year including one to Siracusa's podcast, and I did so through Safari. There's your IAP alternative for payment processing right there that doesn't rely on giving Apple a 15-30% cut, nor giving your credit card details to every fly-by-night crapware peddler. EDIT: Also I just remembered, I believe this is also how I initiated a yearly subscription for a newsletter/podcast vendor hosted on Substack. For that matter, you can pre-order a Tesla Cybertruck using Apple Pay, I haven't, but it was an option on the order page.
activatedgeek 6y ago
I certainly agree with the sentiment this article advocates. It feels hard for any reasonable person to think otherwise. What I haven't found a discussion on is the alternatives? Given that App Store will probably be the only place to sell apps within the _Apple ecosystem_ (at least medium term?), the only way is for Apple to rethink its how it monetizes App Store. What am I missing? Are there alternative models that that people know of which would align with the "dream"?
- chrispeel 6y ago
  I don't have any specific solutions either, yet I do know that I'd like the fee structure and policy to benefit small developers more than large ones. In the current system the rich developers (Amazon) get lower, while the little developers have to pay 30%. Yes, in much of the world the rich get richer while the rest stagnate or get poorer, yet I hope for more from Apple.
- hrktb 6y ago
  The two possible alternatives I’d see with any plausibility: - Apple brings down their fees to an almost “at cost” amount (basically a bit more than average PSPs). They keep ads and other potential “premium” services that have actual value for buyers. I even wonder if they could make searchability or even app store listing as a paying service (apps staying on the lowest tier could only be DLed by direct link for instance) - they bring an “unmanaged” tier to apps, where users go through many hoops to have non app store apps to run. It could be on the same model as The mac app store, where the dev is identified and the binaries are signed, but not verified by Apple. Both alternatives were vehemently avoided by Apple for such a long time, but I wouldn’t be surprised (actually I hope) if they have to give up this battle.
Swizec 6y ago
> that doesn’t help Apple’s image as it’s slowly crawling out of the laptop keyboard fiasco and this string of pretty flaky macos versions You make it sound almost like they aren’t the richest and still among the fastest growing tech companies.
- hrktb 6y ago
  I understand they are in a dominant position in pretty lucrative markets, but I am not sure their position is that stable anymore. At some point I actually needed an iPhone to perform some tasks in my life, and there was a huge gap between iOS and android. I think that gap is pretty thin now. Mac laptops were a beacon of good customer experience at some point, last year I had a lengthy conversation with my boss before getting approval for the 16”. It’s anecdotal, but I feel they could be growing and sitting on piles of money the same way Blackberry was super growing and had all the money even past their prime. They just didn’t have anything in their sleeves to keep it going. Fingers crossed for monday’s announcements.
armandososa 6y ago
I was a big iPad user, I bought 1, 2, and 3 and used it a lot to read, mostly comics via Comixology. Then, Amazon bought Comixology and refused to pay the 30% Apple tax and it became very hard to buy digital comics. So I stopped using my iPad and never bothered to buy a new one. In the end I won: I get to keep the $150 I was impulse-spending in digital comics, and saved thousands of dollars I would've spent on iPads otherwise.

by hrktb 6y ago

jdminhbg 6y ago

> And it’s not like these rule give me more security, provide for the stability of the platform, or help me in any indirect ways. In the case of Amazon, probably not. In the case of nearly all other apps, they definitely do. Having every fly-by-night game accepting credit cards to buy more tokens or whatever would be a usability and security nightmare. Even respectable apps I don’t want to give my credit card info to: I let Apple sit in the middle, handle security, and provide me a place to cancel with one tap. I understand why companies, especially big and responsible ones like Amazon or Basecamp, don’t want to use IAP. But a free-for-all would be terrible for iOS users.

empath75 6y ago
As a user I much prefer in app purchases and Apple Pay, but the fees they charge are clearly extortionate.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
yawboakye 6y ago
My feelings exactly. I want a no-questions-asked unsubscribe option. IAP is guaranteed to provide that, not the individual apps I download. So even though the 30% share of revenue might look huge, being an independent trusted arbiter probably makes it worth it?
Forge36 6y ago
Why not keep IAP as an option vs credit cards? Let apps offer a credit card discounts. If it provides additional benefits to you: it sounds like you're willing to pay a ~30% more. Apple is passing credit cards cost on to app store vendors consumers for an additional upcharge. How much is it? Comparing the percentage cut on a credit card: If I can earn 5% (3% on food and gas?), I'd assume the store is pricing some of that cost into it's products. Apple's model of easy cancel, harder to steal should be something other companies could MITM. Paypal, Amazon, square, and Google offer similar payment schemes. (Venmo to my knowledge can't be used to pay businesses). I get the feeling Apple is expanding into this area with their own credit card. If the choice is a 30% fee or free and no credit card option, this feels like an abuse of power.
- jdminhbg 6y ago
  > Why not keep IAP as an option vs credit cards? Let apps offer a credit card discounts. If it provides additional benefits to you: it sounds like you're willing to pay a ~30% more. This is already the case though, right? Apple's response to Hey specifically suggested that they could offer an IAP option in the app at a markup over their web-based subscription.
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    You cannot offer both in-app. You cannot even mention that you offer both and that the credit-card signup is on your website. If you go with Apple's in-app purchases, you must not mention any alternative methods of payment.
hrktb 6y ago
I agree with you, my preferred solution would actually be that Apple acts as a PSP and lets Amazon and other companies use IAP without the 30% cut (let’s say it stays at 3 or 4% for instance) My angle was just that taking 30% instead of 3% doesn’t do anything for me as a customer.
SllX 6y ago
Apple actually built a way out, but they haven't advertised it, publicized it, nor marketed it under these terms. They probably don't even want people thinking about it. I have not just one, but three active podcast subscriptions that I initiated through Apple Pay just this past year including one to Siracusa's podcast, and I did so through Safari. There's your IAP alternative for payment processing right there that doesn't rely on giving Apple a 15-30% cut, nor giving your credit card details to every fly-by-night crapware peddler. EDIT: Also I just remembered, I believe this is also how I initiated a yearly subscription for a newsletter/podcast vendor hosted on Substack. For that matter, you can pre-order a Tesla Cybertruck using Apple Pay, I haven't, but it was an option on the order page.

activatedgeek 6y ago

I certainly agree with the sentiment this article advocates. It feels hard for any reasonable person to think otherwise. What I haven't found a discussion on is the alternatives? Given that App Store will probably be the only place to sell apps within the _Apple ecosystem_ (at least medium term?), the only way is for Apple to rethink its how it monetizes App Store. What am I missing? Are there alternative models that that people know of which would align with the "dream"?

chrispeel 6y ago
I don't have any specific solutions either, yet I do know that I'd like the fee structure and policy to benefit small developers more than large ones. In the current system the rich developers (Amazon) get lower, while the little developers have to pay 30%. Yes, in much of the world the rich get richer while the rest stagnate or get poorer, yet I hope for more from Apple.
hrktb 6y ago
The two possible alternatives I’d see with any plausibility: - Apple brings down their fees to an almost “at cost” amount (basically a bit more than average PSPs). They keep ads and other potential “premium” services that have actual value for buyers. I even wonder if they could make searchability or even app store listing as a paying service (apps staying on the lowest tier could only be DLed by direct link for instance) - they bring an “unmanaged” tier to apps, where users go through many hoops to have non app store apps to run. It could be on the same model as The mac app store, where the dev is identified and the binaries are signed, but not verified by Apple. Both alternatives were vehemently avoided by Apple for such a long time, but I wouldn’t be surprised (actually I hope) if they have to give up this battle.

Swizec 6y ago

> that doesn’t help Apple’s image as it’s slowly crawling out of the laptop keyboard fiasco and this string of pretty flaky macos versions You make it sound almost like they aren’t the richest and still among the fastest growing tech companies.

hrktb 6y ago
I understand they are in a dominant position in pretty lucrative markets, but I am not sure their position is that stable anymore. At some point I actually needed an iPhone to perform some tasks in my life, and there was a huge gap between iOS and android. I think that gap is pretty thin now. Mac laptops were a beacon of good customer experience at some point, last year I had a lengthy conversation with my boss before getting approval for the 16”. It’s anecdotal, but I feel they could be growing and sitting on piles of money the same way Blackberry was super growing and had all the money even past their prime. They just didn’t have anything in their sleeves to keep it going. Fingers crossed for monday’s announcements.

armandososa 6y ago

I was a big iPad user, I bought 1, 2, and 3 and used it a lot to read, mostly comics via Comixology. Then, Amazon bought Comixology and refused to pay the 30% Apple tax and it became very hard to buy digital comics. So I stopped using my iPad and never bothered to buy a new one. In the end I won: I get to keep the $150 I was impulse-spending in digital comics, and saved thousands of dollars I would've spent on iPads otherwise.