5 ms·

So note #1: swollen batteries are not a normal state of the battery. This is a sign of a defect and battery that is swollen is a safety hazard and should defini

So note #1: swollen batteries are not a normal state of the battery. This is a sign of a defect and battery that is swollen is a safety hazard and should definitely be immediately replaced. Do not throw batteries in a garbage can. I don't know how it is done in US, here in Poland most large shops take used batteries for proper disposal. Note #2: every breathing computer keeps accumulating dust and requires cleaning every couple of months of years. It is worth it if only to keep the noise down. Note #3: it is not safe to vacuum the laptop as it can cause static discharge. Technically, even just waving a charged object over a piece of conductor can induce a current and damage susceptible component. The damage might not be immediately apparent and may cause various types of malfunctions. If you have no other way of doing it at the very least ensure it is done in humid environment (over 70% humidity but the more humid the better).

hombre_fatal 6y ago
For fun, here's a whole subreddit dedicated to pics of swollen batteries: https://old.reddit.com/r/spicypillows/ https://old.reddit.com/r/spicypillows/
- vmurthy 6y ago
  If you’re on mobile , use this : https://www.reddit.com/r/spicypillows/ https://www.reddit.com/r/spicypillows/ For some reason, pre-fixing “old” in the url makes the website unusable on mobile :-(.
  - kinkrtyavimoodh 6y ago
    That's part of the reddit mission to erode usability and make it a normie-social-network, one commit at a time.
  - smnrchrds 6y ago
    Even better, use this: https://i.reddit.com/r/spicypillows/ https://i.reddit.com/r/spicypillows/ It brings the old design of Reddit on mobile, which was actually trying to be usable, unlike the new design that is user-hostile on purpose in order to frustrate people enough to force them to install Reddit apps.
  - gspr 6y ago
    > For some reason, pre-fixing “old” in the url makes the website unusable on mobile :-(. Mobile is exactly the place where I have to prefix "old" in the URL to avoid getting the horrid redesign, even though my user setting is to opt out and I'm logged in.
geerlingguy 6y ago
FYI there are special vacs for electronics which are made to prevent the static issue; many shops have one of these: https://www.newegg.com/black-metropolitan-data-vac-portable-vacuum-cleaner/p/N82E16896367013 https://www.newegg.com/black-metropolitan-data-vac-portable-...
- askvictor 6y ago
  I wonder if some aluminium foil around the vacuum cleaner's tube, connected to a wire through to ground would be a cheap alternative. That said, I have heard that ESD isn't nearly as big an issue as it's made out to be, particularly the idea of slow damage/damage build-up. I don't know if the ESD thing is akin to an old wives tale with a kernel of truth surrounded in increasing layers of falsehoods; or perhaps something that was once true and is no longer, but persists in the collective memory. On the other hand maybe there's some solid evidence for it. Anyone have any evidence beyond anecdotes?
  - goalieca 6y ago
    Well, I’ve faced some rather hard to debug issues because of esd. Wastes a lot of time and so QA makes strict rules about it. Maybe it’s not actually too common but you can never really rule it out.
  - lmilcin 6y ago
    I work with electronics as a hobby. Some time ago I progressed to more sensitive components and so I am pretty interested in the topic. Most ESD damage is quite insidious in nature. Imagine your laptop start loosing performance or one of your application developing a nasty error when you do some specific operation. Even elements designed to protect from ESD have their capacity to accept shocks. For example, your phone's USB connector might be protected from ESD but that protection will run out at some point. Repated shocks to the USB connector may reduce life of your phone.
- lmilcin 6y ago
  I assume that no hobbyist will have one or want to buy one when they just want to clean their laptop. I personally vacuum my devices with a regular vacuum. What I use is metal pipe which is grounded through my hand, strap, ESD mat to real ground.
acjohnson55 6y ago
I had an MBP whose battery swelled up so large that it was pusuhing the Touchpad out of its seat. I was pretty alarmed when I found the cause, worried the thing might blow up on me. But from what I read at the time, it actually is the (or, at least, a) normal progression of the battery.
- aetherspawn 6y ago
  It is normal aging progression of a battery that is not compressed inside a rigid container. In electric vehicles, a constant and firm compression over the entire face of the cell, stops this from occurring [1]. It does not look like a compression plate was incorporated into the design. Source: design engineer for EV company. 1: The compression is most commonly about 70kPa, but varies by manufacturer recommendations. Some manufacturers lately have started to recommend not to compress their cells because they have solved the swelling in other ways.
  - lmilcin 6y ago
    It is not normal aging progression. Think about this, do you think laptop designers designed laptop to expand with the laptop? No, I don't think so. While there might be a tiny bit of space allowance I have never seen a laptop that has been designed to "grow" with its battery. Not every swollen battery is a bomb that is going to blow, but do you really want to risk it? You have no way of determining whether it is safe to use or not and for this reason you need to treat is as unsafe.
    - jacquesm 6y ago
      Yes, it is perfectly normal when not compressed. Your 'think about this' asks someone to do this for a living to think about something that they are likely thinking about it every day of their working life. Yes, laptop designers - and designers of all high density consumer packaged batteries - are designing their cases with battery aging in mind. In fact this is such an important point we explicitly check for it during evaluation of companies that produce such hardware because if this isn't done carefully it is a safety risk. Laptops aren't designed to 'grow' with their battery, that's just a strawman you made up. The choices are: - leave the battery some room in the case so that its normal life expansion can be accommodated (the battery enclosure will have to be flexible for this to work properly) or - design the enclosure in such a way that the battery is situated so that it can not expand at all. Batteries do not actually have to swell and indeed, not every swollen battery is bad, in fact this may well be calculated in during the design phase. So yes, you will 'risk it', it being perfectly ok. > You have no way of determining whether it is safe to use or not and for this reason you need to treat is as unsafe. We actually do. It's called materials science and accelerated aging as well as learning from past mistakes. Engineering is the accumulated knowledge of many 1000's of failed experiments coupled with rigorous research into the materials used for engineering themselves, chance is minimized as much as possible.
userbinator 6y ago
Static is not really a problem because the components are mounted on a PCB that connects them together with relatively low impedance. (Personal experience, from having cleaned many computers over the years with a vacuum.)
- lmilcin 6y ago
  That is not true. Think about your hand and PCBs as two plates of highly charged capacitor (say couple kV). When the discharge happens it will hit a random component or trace. A lot will depend on what the component or trace is. If the trace is data path between some ICs it is likely going to destroy either of them because it has no other way to flow to equalize with the rest of PCB than through one of the chips at the end of datapath.
  - userbinator 6y ago
    If the trace is data path between some ICs it is likely going to destroy either of them because it has no other way to flow to equalize with the rest of PCB than through one of the chips at the end of datapath. For it to cause any damage it must be of high enough energy, which means voltage * current * time. Although the initial charge may be several kV, it quickly drops as it dissipates. Inputs have built-in ESD protection diodes which will serve to dampen the event greatly. The reality is, consumer ICs are not ultra-sensitive to ESD once mounted on a PCB --- and common assumptions may dictate that parts like CPUs are most sensitive, but if you consider the idle power consumption of a CPU ("leakage current"), and the fact that it operates at such a low voltage, you'll realise that the DC resistance is very low. One of the things you learn very near the beginning if you go into laptop repair is that the CPU power rails will look like they're shorted if the CPU is still in the circuit.
audiometry 6y ago
So how am I supposed to clean my laptop if not with a vacuuum? I bought a nice Alienware with a 5 year premium onsite warranty. We have dogs and open windows.
- swinglock 6y ago
  Buy a can of compressed air.
  - lmilcin 6y ago
    Compressed air can is also dangerous on its own (if liquid air sprays on the part). I personally vacuum my devices with a regular vacuum. What I use is metal pipe which is grounded through my hand, strap, ESD mat to real ground. You just need to understand ESD a little bit to be able to eliminate the risk. Basically, you can do one of two things. 1. ensure the potential never builts up between two parts by having the parts directly connected (ideally with high resistance path). This is not ideal, because both objects can built charge together but at least both objects interacting with each other will now not be a problem. 2. ensure parts are referenced to common ground. Again, high resistance path is preferable because it helps reduce large currents. Earth has infinite capacity to take charge from you from practical point of view and so as long as you are grounded and you keep the object in your hand you and the object in your hand will never build charge. The object still needs to be able to at least dissipate the charge (for example made from metal or conductive plastic), and that's why you want metal pipe attached to the vacuum.
colordrops 6y ago
> Do not throw batteries in a garbage can I could be mistaken but I do believe you can throw a properly discharged lithium polymer battery in the trash, as there is nothing toxic in them. I don't think many laptops use LiPo though.
- lmilcin 6y ago
  Most people have no idea what their discharged batteries are composed of or what is safe or not safe to throw with the rest of thrash and so good rule is to tell people to treat ALL batteries the same way.
  - colordrops 6y ago
    This attitude is the same one used when they decided it was best to lie to people and tell them to not wear masks.
- pantalaimon 6y ago
  They will still cause a fire in the garbage truck. Those trucks will usually compress the trash which will expose the lithium to air.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - userbinator 6y ago
    Lithium ion batteries do not contain metallic lithium.

hombre_fatal 6y ago

For fun, here's a whole subreddit dedicated to pics of swollen batteries: https://old.reddit.com/r/spicypillows/ https://old.reddit.com/r/spicypillows/

vmurthy 6y ago
If you’re on mobile , use this : https://www.reddit.com/r/spicypillows/ https://www.reddit.com/r/spicypillows/ For some reason, pre-fixing “old” in the url makes the website unusable on mobile :-(.
- kinkrtyavimoodh 6y ago
  That's part of the reddit mission to erode usability and make it a normie-social-network, one commit at a time.
- smnrchrds 6y ago
  Even better, use this: https://i.reddit.com/r/spicypillows/ https://i.reddit.com/r/spicypillows/ It brings the old design of Reddit on mobile, which was actually trying to be usable, unlike the new design that is user-hostile on purpose in order to frustrate people enough to force them to install Reddit apps.
- gspr 6y ago
  > For some reason, pre-fixing “old” in the url makes the website unusable on mobile :-(. Mobile is exactly the place where I have to prefix "old" in the URL to avoid getting the horrid redesign, even though my user setting is to opt out and I'm logged in.

geerlingguy 6y ago

FYI there are special vacs for electronics which are made to prevent the static issue; many shops have one of these: https://www.newegg.com/black-metropolitan-data-vac-portable-vacuum-cleaner/p/N82E16896367013 https://www.newegg.com/black-metropolitan-data-vac-portable-...

askvictor 6y ago
I wonder if some aluminium foil around the vacuum cleaner's tube, connected to a wire through to ground would be a cheap alternative. That said, I have heard that ESD isn't nearly as big an issue as it's made out to be, particularly the idea of slow damage/damage build-up. I don't know if the ESD thing is akin to an old wives tale with a kernel of truth surrounded in increasing layers of falsehoods; or perhaps something that was once true and is no longer, but persists in the collective memory. On the other hand maybe there's some solid evidence for it. Anyone have any evidence beyond anecdotes?
- goalieca 6y ago
  Well, I’ve faced some rather hard to debug issues because of esd. Wastes a lot of time and so QA makes strict rules about it. Maybe it’s not actually too common but you can never really rule it out.
- lmilcin 6y ago
  I work with electronics as a hobby. Some time ago I progressed to more sensitive components and so I am pretty interested in the topic. Most ESD damage is quite insidious in nature. Imagine your laptop start loosing performance or one of your application developing a nasty error when you do some specific operation. Even elements designed to protect from ESD have their capacity to accept shocks. For example, your phone's USB connector might be protected from ESD but that protection will run out at some point. Repated shocks to the USB connector may reduce life of your phone.
lmilcin 6y ago
I assume that no hobbyist will have one or want to buy one when they just want to clean their laptop. I personally vacuum my devices with a regular vacuum. What I use is metal pipe which is grounded through my hand, strap, ESD mat to real ground.

acjohnson55 6y ago

I had an MBP whose battery swelled up so large that it was pusuhing the Touchpad out of its seat. I was pretty alarmed when I found the cause, worried the thing might blow up on me. But from what I read at the time, it actually is the (or, at least, a) normal progression of the battery.

aetherspawn 6y ago
It is normal aging progression of a battery that is not compressed inside a rigid container. In electric vehicles, a constant and firm compression over the entire face of the cell, stops this from occurring [1]. It does not look like a compression plate was incorporated into the design. Source: design engineer for EV company. 1: The compression is most commonly about 70kPa, but varies by manufacturer recommendations. Some manufacturers lately have started to recommend not to compress their cells because they have solved the swelling in other ways.
- lmilcin 6y ago
  It is not normal aging progression. Think about this, do you think laptop designers designed laptop to expand with the laptop? No, I don't think so. While there might be a tiny bit of space allowance I have never seen a laptop that has been designed to "grow" with its battery. Not every swollen battery is a bomb that is going to blow, but do you really want to risk it? You have no way of determining whether it is safe to use or not and for this reason you need to treat is as unsafe.
  - jacquesm 6y ago
    Yes, it is perfectly normal when not compressed. Your 'think about this' asks someone to do this for a living to think about something that they are likely thinking about it every day of their working life. Yes, laptop designers - and designers of all high density consumer packaged batteries - are designing their cases with battery aging in mind. In fact this is such an important point we explicitly check for it during evaluation of companies that produce such hardware because if this isn't done carefully it is a safety risk. Laptops aren't designed to 'grow' with their battery, that's just a strawman you made up. The choices are: - leave the battery some room in the case so that its normal life expansion can be accommodated (the battery enclosure will have to be flexible for this to work properly) or - design the enclosure in such a way that the battery is situated so that it can not expand at all. Batteries do not actually have to swell and indeed, not every swollen battery is bad, in fact this may well be calculated in during the design phase. So yes, you will 'risk it', it being perfectly ok. > You have no way of determining whether it is safe to use or not and for this reason you need to treat is as unsafe. We actually do. It's called materials science and accelerated aging as well as learning from past mistakes. Engineering is the accumulated knowledge of many 1000's of failed experiments coupled with rigorous research into the materials used for engineering themselves, chance is minimized as much as possible.

userbinator 6y ago

Static is not really a problem because the components are mounted on a PCB that connects them together with relatively low impedance. (Personal experience, from having cleaned many computers over the years with a vacuum.)

lmilcin 6y ago
That is not true. Think about your hand and PCBs as two plates of highly charged capacitor (say couple kV). When the discharge happens it will hit a random component or trace. A lot will depend on what the component or trace is. If the trace is data path between some ICs it is likely going to destroy either of them because it has no other way to flow to equalize with the rest of PCB than through one of the chips at the end of datapath.
- userbinator 6y ago
  If the trace is data path between some ICs it is likely going to destroy either of them because it has no other way to flow to equalize with the rest of PCB than through one of the chips at the end of datapath. For it to cause any damage it must be of high enough energy, which means voltage * current * time. Although the initial charge may be several kV, it quickly drops as it dissipates. Inputs have built-in ESD protection diodes which will serve to dampen the event greatly. The reality is, consumer ICs are not ultra-sensitive to ESD once mounted on a PCB --- and common assumptions may dictate that parts like CPUs are most sensitive, but if you consider the idle power consumption of a CPU ("leakage current"), and the fact that it operates at such a low voltage, you'll realise that the DC resistance is very low. One of the things you learn very near the beginning if you go into laptop repair is that the CPU power rails will look like they're shorted if the CPU is still in the circuit.

audiometry 6y ago

So how am I supposed to clean my laptop if not with a vacuuum? I bought a nice Alienware with a 5 year premium onsite warranty. We have dogs and open windows.

swinglock 6y ago
Buy a can of compressed air.
- lmilcin 6y ago
  Compressed air can is also dangerous on its own (if liquid air sprays on the part). I personally vacuum my devices with a regular vacuum. What I use is metal pipe which is grounded through my hand, strap, ESD mat to real ground. You just need to understand ESD a little bit to be able to eliminate the risk. Basically, you can do one of two things. 1. ensure the potential never builts up between two parts by having the parts directly connected (ideally with high resistance path). This is not ideal, because both objects can built charge together but at least both objects interacting with each other will now not be a problem. 2. ensure parts are referenced to common ground. Again, high resistance path is preferable because it helps reduce large currents. Earth has infinite capacity to take charge from you from practical point of view and so as long as you are grounded and you keep the object in your hand you and the object in your hand will never build charge. The object still needs to be able to at least dissipate the charge (for example made from metal or conductive plastic), and that's why you want metal pipe attached to the vacuum.

colordrops 6y ago

> Do not throw batteries in a garbage can I could be mistaken but I do believe you can throw a properly discharged lithium polymer battery in the trash, as there is nothing toxic in them. I don't think many laptops use LiPo though.

lmilcin 6y ago
Most people have no idea what their discharged batteries are composed of or what is safe or not safe to throw with the rest of thrash and so good rule is to tell people to treat ALL batteries the same way.
- colordrops 6y ago
  This attitude is the same one used when they decided it was best to lie to people and tell them to not wear masks.
pantalaimon 6y ago
They will still cause a fire in the garbage truck. Those trucks will usually compress the trash which will expose the lithium to air.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- userbinator 6y ago
  Lithium ion batteries do not contain metallic lithium.