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Before claiming that group X does Y to cause outcome Z that is unpleasant to someone, it is worth considering: 1. Is Y really a behavior exclusive to group X?

Before claiming that group X does Y to cause outcome Z that is unpleasant to someone, it is worth considering: 1. Is Y really a behavior exclusive to group X? 2. Is behavior Y fair to generalize across members of group X? 3. Is outcome Z the intended purpose of behavior Y, or is a side-effect that someone might take painfully? For example, the sentiment of “In general on dating apps, women are funneling people to their instagram profile to ignore them” might read like at best someone low-key thinks women owe others attention. Using a dating profile to promote another social media profile is something any attractive person might reasonably consider, and (barring some extraordinary looks, etc.) reaching out to them from a social profile with a lot of clout could be a way to get attention—clout likely being what that person respects, as they themselves are purposefully trying to acquire it.

sergeykish 6y ago
I have LinkedIn profile and ignore it. HRs may say it loud, sorry, most of the time I do not seek job offer. Would I respond if someone I value send me an email? Government: "Only you can save Earth from Aliens". Hell, yeah! It is not language that hurts, it is what behind it. I see nothing wrong behind original sentence. In yours I feel lie - there is something shameful, something that can't be said. Also you've changed "dating apps users" to "any attractive person" which is awful judgement. Population versus gamers of one particular style. This style strongly reminds me of George Orwells "Politics and the English Language" (1946), I hope it will not live. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_and_the_English_Language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_and_the_English_Langu...
- goblin89 6y ago
  > I have LinkedIn profile and ignore it. I also ignore my LinkedIn, but I would not mind it being popular just in case I lose all existing customers and need a gig for whatever reason. With that in mind, imagine I link to my LinkedIn from my Instagram (let’s imagine my Instagram is very popular), and then see some tired headhunter tweeting “In general on Instagram, software engineers are funneling recruiters to their LinkedIn profile to ignore them”. Whoever wrote that would come across as a needy, frustrated, and possibly as someone who thinks I’m obligated to respond to their messages; but until recruiters start to ambush us engineers in dark alleys I’m not going to worry much about that claim, even though it’s factually incorrect. Now, that scenario becomes a bit more charged with a claim that plays to gender stereotypes and generalizes across a group with a history of discrimination and violence against. > I see nothing wrong behind original sentence. I will rephrase. The original sentence, addressed to a group of supposedly mostly men, attributes scheming or malicious intent (“funnel to ignore”) to something that women do. The wrongness of it is akin to the wrongness of a broke person saying that Apple with its ads “funnels people into stores to withhold shiny gadgets from them”. (Apple is not the only company that advertises; that’s not why it advertises; etc.) The difference is, in our culture as it is now Apple can’t possibly take damage from such a statement, while women regularly suffer violence from men. Why add fuel to this fire if you can express the same idea without? (EDIT: rephrased.)
  - sergeykish 6y ago
    Your profile would not be usual. I don't understand what's going on with gender speech. No matter how I want I can't give birth to baby. Not carry, not breastfeed. This results in different roles in hunter-gatherer society, optimized in genes throughout millennia. We should have same rights but we can't expect same results. We have different stats, we have different brains (hormones whatever). Even children. Boys compete a lot and are in material science. Girls builds groups. It is awesome to watch. Like girls emotional intellect on average is much higher. And boys EQ is much dumber. I believe I can say this. But for some reason in games based on EQ... no, we should be equal. I dance salsa. It is very asymmetric social dance. Man and woman have very distinct roles and we enjoy it a lot. Woman waits for invitation, man can invite, woman can reject. Thus balance is formed. Each dance starts with mini game - invite the one who wants to dance with you. And it is all just for fun. Also men are not expected to reject. I've seen woman inviting men on each dance, that ends badly - exploitation of rules - loss of goodwill. A month later noone invites her, rejected by society. Hope it shows that "ignore" is not bad in some cultures. We should grew respect to who we are and each other. Accept strong and weak sides. That is the best antidote against unreasonable expectations. Sorry, but I think your understanding is just a reflection of yourself. More accurate and neutral rewrite would be speech from personal experience: > Woman I've contacted on dating apps overwhelmingly respond to popular account, otherwise ignore. Like nothing changed at all. No excuses, no expectations just naked truth. That's how it should be read.
    - goblin89 6y ago
      No need to apologize, we all tend to understand things in ways that reflect ourselves!
      - sergeykish 6y ago
        Look what I've done here. I've said "dumber" not "lower". You've said nothing. That's double standards.
  - naasking 6y ago
    > The difference is, in our culture as it is now Apple can’t possibly take damage from such a statement, while women regularly suffer violence from men. So your counterfactual claim is that if statements about about women "scheming" didn't exist, violence against women would be lower? That seems like a pretty strong causal claim when all we have is correlative data. It could simply be that the people who are violent against women start and perpetuate such statements, rather than that such statements causes people to be violent towards women.
vmception 6y ago
But this wasn't a quantitative analysis on what other combinations of people experience. It was acknowledging a shared cisgender experience with women. It doesn't matter if other combinations of people do or don't experience this, and I didn't suggest it was exclusive to any one group. It also happens, which I think is the most important thing here.

sergeykish 6y ago

I have LinkedIn profile and ignore it. HRs may say it loud, sorry, most of the time I do not seek job offer. Would I respond if someone I value send me an email? Government: "Only you can save Earth from Aliens". Hell, yeah! It is not language that hurts, it is what behind it. I see nothing wrong behind original sentence. In yours I feel lie - there is something shameful, something that can't be said. Also you've changed "dating apps users" to "any attractive person" which is awful judgement. Population versus gamers of one particular style. This style strongly reminds me of George Orwells "Politics and the English Language" (1946), I hope it will not live. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_and_the_English_Language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_and_the_English_Langu...

goblin89 6y ago
> I have LinkedIn profile and ignore it. I also ignore my LinkedIn, but I would not mind it being popular just in case I lose all existing customers and need a gig for whatever reason. With that in mind, imagine I link to my LinkedIn from my Instagram (let’s imagine my Instagram is very popular), and then see some tired headhunter tweeting “In general on Instagram, software engineers are funneling recruiters to their LinkedIn profile to ignore them”. Whoever wrote that would come across as a needy, frustrated, and possibly as someone who thinks I’m obligated to respond to their messages; but until recruiters start to ambush us engineers in dark alleys I’m not going to worry much about that claim, even though it’s factually incorrect. Now, that scenario becomes a bit more charged with a claim that plays to gender stereotypes and generalizes across a group with a history of discrimination and violence against. > I see nothing wrong behind original sentence. I will rephrase. The original sentence, addressed to a group of supposedly mostly men, attributes scheming or malicious intent (“funnel to ignore”) to something that women do. The wrongness of it is akin to the wrongness of a broke person saying that Apple with its ads “funnels people into stores to withhold shiny gadgets from them”. (Apple is not the only company that advertises; that’s not why it advertises; etc.) The difference is, in our culture as it is now Apple can’t possibly take damage from such a statement, while women regularly suffer violence from men. Why add fuel to this fire if you can express the same idea without? (EDIT: rephrased.)
- sergeykish 6y ago
  Your profile would not be usual. I don't understand what's going on with gender speech. No matter how I want I can't give birth to baby. Not carry, not breastfeed. This results in different roles in hunter-gatherer society, optimized in genes throughout millennia. We should have same rights but we can't expect same results. We have different stats, we have different brains (hormones whatever). Even children. Boys compete a lot and are in material science. Girls builds groups. It is awesome to watch. Like girls emotional intellect on average is much higher. And boys EQ is much dumber. I believe I can say this. But for some reason in games based on EQ... no, we should be equal. I dance salsa. It is very asymmetric social dance. Man and woman have very distinct roles and we enjoy it a lot. Woman waits for invitation, man can invite, woman can reject. Thus balance is formed. Each dance starts with mini game - invite the one who wants to dance with you. And it is all just for fun. Also men are not expected to reject. I've seen woman inviting men on each dance, that ends badly - exploitation of rules - loss of goodwill. A month later noone invites her, rejected by society. Hope it shows that "ignore" is not bad in some cultures. We should grew respect to who we are and each other. Accept strong and weak sides. That is the best antidote against unreasonable expectations. Sorry, but I think your understanding is just a reflection of yourself. More accurate and neutral rewrite would be speech from personal experience: > Woman I've contacted on dating apps overwhelmingly respond to popular account, otherwise ignore. Like nothing changed at all. No excuses, no expectations just naked truth. That's how it should be read.
  - goblin89 6y ago
    No need to apologize, we all tend to understand things in ways that reflect ourselves!
    - sergeykish 6y ago
      Look what I've done here. I've said "dumber" not "lower". You've said nothing. That's double standards.
- naasking 6y ago
  > The difference is, in our culture as it is now Apple can’t possibly take damage from such a statement, while women regularly suffer violence from men. So your counterfactual claim is that if statements about about women "scheming" didn't exist, violence against women would be lower? That seems like a pretty strong causal claim when all we have is correlative data. It could simply be that the people who are violent against women start and perpetuate such statements, rather than that such statements causes people to be violent towards women.

vmception 6y ago

But this wasn't a quantitative analysis on what other combinations of people experience. It was acknowledging a shared cisgender experience with women. It doesn't matter if other combinations of people do or don't experience this, and I didn't suggest it was exclusive to any one group. It also happens, which I think is the most important thing here.