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> I find the fact talks fell through particularly concerning as right now we should all be presenting a united front against China. Honest question: why? Why s

by Youden 6y ago

> I find the fact talks fell through particularly concerning as right now we should all be presenting a united front against China. Honest question: why? Why should Europe unite with the US against China? I don't mean this as a challenge, I'm not trying to argue either way¸ I'm just curious about the reasoning behind your statement.

boudin 6y ago
I'm with you, i don't get this neither.
noir-york 6y ago
Because China is threatening the global order on which peace and prosperity lies, starting with the freedom of the seas. China is already harassing and sinking fishing vessels and trying to close the South China Sea. It may soon try to enforce an ADIZ over the SC Sea as well. Not great. China is a growing aggressive power with cyber attacks across a multitude of countries and is running, like Russia, disinformation campaigns to undermine democracy. It is in the interest of EU and the US, and indeed many countries, to have a rules-based international order. It is increasingly in the interests of the US as its power is in relative decline.
- fxtentacle 6y ago
  For me, it reads like they wanted to discuss the rules for the new order, but then the US suspended talks over what might be called greed.
  - noir-york 6y ago
    I was replying to the point about why EU and the US should form an alliance against China - and the reason being the wider geostrategic context.
    - NicoJuicy 6y ago
      But he is correct. US withdrew current alliances, so the trust to create new ones is partially gone. There is a reason that the next president will have to restore trust to the US as world leader and will have a tougher job than normal.
- Youden 6y ago
  Those are some reasons for "against China" but how about "with the US"? The US isn't the only potential ally against Chinese influence, why should Europe align itself with America instead of other countries? Also, do you think there's no argument to be made for changing China's behaviour through a partnership?
  - noir-york 6y ago
    > The US isn't the only potential ally against Chinese influence, why should Europe align itself with America instead of other countries? Of course! All countries that value a rules-based order should ally, and that would include the EU, the US, India, Australia, and the many other smaller countries. > Also, do you think there's no argument to be made for changing China's behaviour through a partnership? Been tried. India was trying that by letting China have a stake in the economy. It hasn't ummmm worked out so well. China uses the economy as a tool for its own political aims.
- NicoJuicy 6y ago
  We all know this, but Europe has no trust in the US under Trump. How can you not see that they are waiting till trust re-appears. 1 example: If Europe would really partner up, Trump would require Russia to be in the table ( G7). The current situation is nuts and it's not Europe's fault. Ps. Trump has no interest in peace and prosperity. Haven't you been paying attention? The US has never been this divided and the current leader thinks tweeting is more important.
  - noir-york 6y ago
    > How can you not see that they are waiting till trust re-appears. The EU cannot afford to wait that long. China isn't taking a pause on its aggression. Indeed, its exploiting the US under Trump, Covid, etc to move aggressively now. > The current situation is nuts and it's not Europe's fault. "fault"? It doesn't have to be your fault if the mess still ends on your lap. And Europe (and I'm a European) being neighbours with Eurasia doesnt have the luxury of huge oceans separating it from revanchist powers.
    - NicoJuicy 6y ago
      I'm European too. The thing about democracy is, it's a slow process. Currently the best thing is to wait till November and China knows that. They are exploiting the situation, but in contrast. I think the "one road, one belt" will fail if they continue their exploitive behaviour. Taiwan is not an easy topic right now, because it's a bit too early. Since Western democracy under Trump is not United :( As soon as we can, harder measures should be employed.
      - noir-york 6y ago
        Trump is a moron - threatening to withdraw US troops out of Germany is a gift to Russia. But the EU cannot wait for Trump to go away because if he wins reelection that could be 5 years away. We don't have that time. The EU needs to work with what its got - work with India, Australia, PacRim countries. The problem is that the EU is itself split with different interests. Someone has to provide leadership. The US president is the natural option but Trump has not stepped up. Someone else needs to - it cannot be Merkel as she's stepping down soon, but we urgently need leadership on the issue.
LatteLazy 6y ago
It's a fair question. I don't think the US (or the EU) can change Chinese policies on a list of issues alone. At least not without a tonne of backlash at home over the economic results. So the EU (/US) (plus a list of othets) either need to unite on those issues or accept them happening. The issues I'm thinking about are: Hong Kong, freedoms in wider China, treatment of minorities, coronavirus and the recent clashes in India (I don't want to take sides, I just want two nuclear powers to stop shooting at each other). You may disagree with one or more of these issues. But I'd be surprised if you think nothing on this list warrents at least some international pressure? I'm more than happy to admit that none of the places I've listed are perfect. And we all have bones to pick with each other. But right now we're squabbling over very little while China sets up camps and deployed troops...
NicoJuicy 6y ago
Better question: Why would Europe/Canada partner with the US now, under Trump. They will do so when someone more trustworthy appears, but that is not the case currently. You can't get trust, if you just take all pre-existing agreements and throw it out of the window.

by Youden 6y ago

boudin 6y ago

I'm with you, i don't get this neither.

noir-york 6y ago

Because China is threatening the global order on which peace and prosperity lies, starting with the freedom of the seas. China is already harassing and sinking fishing vessels and trying to close the South China Sea. It may soon try to enforce an ADIZ over the SC Sea as well. Not great. China is a growing aggressive power with cyber attacks across a multitude of countries and is running, like Russia, disinformation campaigns to undermine democracy. It is in the interest of EU and the US, and indeed many countries, to have a rules-based international order. It is increasingly in the interests of the US as its power is in relative decline.

fxtentacle 6y ago
For me, it reads like they wanted to discuss the rules for the new order, but then the US suspended talks over what might be called greed.
- noir-york 6y ago
  I was replying to the point about why EU and the US should form an alliance against China - and the reason being the wider geostrategic context.
  - NicoJuicy 6y ago
    But he is correct. US withdrew current alliances, so the trust to create new ones is partially gone. There is a reason that the next president will have to restore trust to the US as world leader and will have a tougher job than normal.
Youden 6y ago
Those are some reasons for "against China" but how about "with the US"? The US isn't the only potential ally against Chinese influence, why should Europe align itself with America instead of other countries? Also, do you think there's no argument to be made for changing China's behaviour through a partnership?
- noir-york 6y ago
  > The US isn't the only potential ally against Chinese influence, why should Europe align itself with America instead of other countries? Of course! All countries that value a rules-based order should ally, and that would include the EU, the US, India, Australia, and the many other smaller countries. > Also, do you think there's no argument to be made for changing China's behaviour through a partnership? Been tried. India was trying that by letting China have a stake in the economy. It hasn't ummmm worked out so well. China uses the economy as a tool for its own political aims.
NicoJuicy 6y ago
We all know this, but Europe has no trust in the US under Trump. How can you not see that they are waiting till trust re-appears. 1 example: If Europe would really partner up, Trump would require Russia to be in the table ( G7). The current situation is nuts and it's not Europe's fault. Ps. Trump has no interest in peace and prosperity. Haven't you been paying attention? The US has never been this divided and the current leader thinks tweeting is more important.
- noir-york 6y ago
  > How can you not see that they are waiting till trust re-appears. The EU cannot afford to wait that long. China isn't taking a pause on its aggression. Indeed, its exploiting the US under Trump, Covid, etc to move aggressively now. > The current situation is nuts and it's not Europe's fault. "fault"? It doesn't have to be your fault if the mess still ends on your lap. And Europe (and I'm a European) being neighbours with Eurasia doesnt have the luxury of huge oceans separating it from revanchist powers.
  - NicoJuicy 6y ago
    I'm European too. The thing about democracy is, it's a slow process. Currently the best thing is to wait till November and China knows that. They are exploiting the situation, but in contrast. I think the "one road, one belt" will fail if they continue their exploitive behaviour. Taiwan is not an easy topic right now, because it's a bit too early. Since Western democracy under Trump is not United :( As soon as we can, harder measures should be employed.
    - noir-york 6y ago
      Trump is a moron - threatening to withdraw US troops out of Germany is a gift to Russia. But the EU cannot wait for Trump to go away because if he wins reelection that could be 5 years away. We don't have that time. The EU needs to work with what its got - work with India, Australia, PacRim countries. The problem is that the EU is itself split with different interests. Someone has to provide leadership. The US president is the natural option but Trump has not stepped up. Someone else needs to - it cannot be Merkel as she's stepping down soon, but we urgently need leadership on the issue.

LatteLazy 6y ago

It's a fair question. I don't think the US (or the EU) can change Chinese policies on a list of issues alone. At least not without a tonne of backlash at home over the economic results. So the EU (/US) (plus a list of othets) either need to unite on those issues or accept them happening. The issues I'm thinking about are: Hong Kong, freedoms in wider China, treatment of minorities, coronavirus and the recent clashes in India (I don't want to take sides, I just want two nuclear powers to stop shooting at each other). You may disagree with one or more of these issues. But I'd be surprised if you think nothing on this list warrents at least some international pressure? I'm more than happy to admit that none of the places I've listed are perfect. And we all have bones to pick with each other. But right now we're squabbling over very little while China sets up camps and deployed troops...

NicoJuicy 6y ago

Better question: Why would Europe/Canada partner with the US now, under Trump. They will do so when someone more trustworthy appears, but that is not the case currently. You can't get trust, if you just take all pre-existing agreements and throw it out of the window.