3 ms·

Instead of dispatchability payments, why not demand response? Thermostats, electric cars, water heaters, dryers, smelters, and data centers can all turn on a di

by ip26 6y ago

Instead of dispatchability payments, why not demand response? Thermostats, electric cars, water heaters, dryers, smelters, and data centers can all turn on a dime if an incentive is there. Also, what's wrong with policy wonks?

hairytrog 6y ago
it's just difficult to coordinate all these things top down and there's a bunch of extra infrastructure and IT, and more regulation and rules and complexity. People telling you when you can and can't do things, etc. Eh. Seems unAmerican. But given the total enthusiasm and commitment, I bet it could be made to work. But maybe we have to accept that it's gonna cost more, and that we'll probably lose on other sides. This renewable world just might not be such a nice place. Power would be less taken for granted because it would not always be available. a lot more people would have to work in the industry to keep it going (low EROI for renewables) and they wouldn't be working in other industries. Ironically, that's a plus in the article, which touts immense job creation. lol - not a very good objective. The landscape near populated areas would be dominated with wind turbines and solar plants.
- noir_lord 6y ago
  > it's just difficult to coordinate all these things top down and there's a bunch of extra infrastructure and IT, and more regulation and rules and complexity. People telling you when you can and can't do things, etc. Eh. Seems unAmerican. I honestly read that as "it requires people to communicate and co-ordinate in a way that is a net benefit to everyone, seems un-american" and thought yeah that seems about right. For what it's worth national grids with co-operation agreements and a strict regulatory regime absolutely do work when well implemented, the UK has had one for decades.
xyzzyz 6y ago
Most data centers needs non-stop 24/7 reliability, and there are very few use cases where it makes sense and is even possible to delay your workload waiting for lower energy prices. Smelters have complicated processes, and they cannot really turn on a dime. Lastly, data centers and smelters are expensive capital investments, and typically the economic calculation requires them to be run non-stop to recoup the capital investment.
- nordsieck 6y ago
  > Most data centers needs non-stop 24/7 reliability, and there are very few use cases where it makes sense and is even possible to delay your workload waiting for lower energy prices. Perhaps your parent was thinking of EC2 spot instances? > Lastly, data centers and smelters are expensive capital investments, and typically the economic calculation requires them to be run non-stop to recoup the capital investment. I suspect this is true for almost all commercial operations. Residential electric car charging is the only thing I can think of that's 1. A relatively large draw 2. Relatively time insensitive In general, people aren't going to delay their dinner or wash by a few hours to save a few cents in electricity fees. They might be ok with car charging being delayed as long as it's full when they leave in the morning.
  - xyzzyz 6y ago
    Perhaps your parent was thinking of EC2 spot instances? Maybe, but the whole reason cloud providers offer ephemeral instances is precisely because letting the machines sit idle is a waste of capital. I suspect this is true for almost all commercial operations. I'm not sure if that's the case. I think it depends on the efficiency of production, ability to stockpile the product and the demand. Not all factories operate around the clock, because round the clock labor is also very expensive. Residential electric car charging is the only thing I can think of that's (...) I think a relatively easy development here would be to install large water tanks in people houses, and heat them up/cool them down when energy is cheap, and reuse stored energy when energy is more expensive, to save on heating/AC. But yes, energy these days is so cheap compared to labor and to value added that a complex schemes of idling production when energy prices are high is probably a non-starter in developed countries.
    - ip26 6y ago
      I think a relatively easy development here would be to install large water tanks in people houses, and heat them up/cool them down when energy is cheap Literally already happening. I have a demand response control box retrofitted onto my electric tanked water heater. It shuts off during high rate times.
noneeeed 6y ago
People always nay-say demand management, but here in the UK the National Grid already does this. They have contracts with many large industrial companies who presumably get lower rates in return for being able to turn down their demand on request.
- noir_lord 6y ago
  They do, agreements are typically in place with companies that use a lot of power but can live without it for a fair few hours. aluminium production/smelting uses a colossal amount of electricity but they can shut down quickly for a few hours (as long as they don't let things get too cold and freeze which is expensive as it destroys equipment and takes a long time to restart - which is what happened in the ransomware attack against norsk, they had to switch to manual line processes to keep it moving). For anyone interested the people responsible for monitoring our grid have a good website with a tonne of info. https://www.nationalgrideso.com/ https://www.nationalgrideso.com/

by ip26 6y ago

hairytrog 6y ago

it's just difficult to coordinate all these things top down and there's a bunch of extra infrastructure and IT, and more regulation and rules and complexity. People telling you when you can and can't do things, etc. Eh. Seems unAmerican. But given the total enthusiasm and commitment, I bet it could be made to work. But maybe we have to accept that it's gonna cost more, and that we'll probably lose on other sides. This renewable world just might not be such a nice place. Power would be less taken for granted because it would not always be available. a lot more people would have to work in the industry to keep it going (low EROI for renewables) and they wouldn't be working in other industries. Ironically, that's a plus in the article, which touts immense job creation. lol - not a very good objective. The landscape near populated areas would be dominated with wind turbines and solar plants.

noir_lord 6y ago
> it's just difficult to coordinate all these things top down and there's a bunch of extra infrastructure and IT, and more regulation and rules and complexity. People telling you when you can and can't do things, etc. Eh. Seems unAmerican. I honestly read that as "it requires people to communicate and co-ordinate in a way that is a net benefit to everyone, seems un-american" and thought yeah that seems about right. For what it's worth national grids with co-operation agreements and a strict regulatory regime absolutely do work when well implemented, the UK has had one for decades.

xyzzyz 6y ago

Most data centers needs non-stop 24/7 reliability, and there are very few use cases where it makes sense and is even possible to delay your workload waiting for lower energy prices. Smelters have complicated processes, and they cannot really turn on a dime. Lastly, data centers and smelters are expensive capital investments, and typically the economic calculation requires them to be run non-stop to recoup the capital investment.

nordsieck 6y ago
> Most data centers needs non-stop 24/7 reliability, and there are very few use cases where it makes sense and is even possible to delay your workload waiting for lower energy prices. Perhaps your parent was thinking of EC2 spot instances? > Lastly, data centers and smelters are expensive capital investments, and typically the economic calculation requires them to be run non-stop to recoup the capital investment. I suspect this is true for almost all commercial operations. Residential electric car charging is the only thing I can think of that's 1. A relatively large draw 2. Relatively time insensitive In general, people aren't going to delay their dinner or wash by a few hours to save a few cents in electricity fees. They might be ok with car charging being delayed as long as it's full when they leave in the morning.
- xyzzyz 6y ago
  Perhaps your parent was thinking of EC2 spot instances? Maybe, but the whole reason cloud providers offer ephemeral instances is precisely because letting the machines sit idle is a waste of capital. I suspect this is true for almost all commercial operations. I'm not sure if that's the case. I think it depends on the efficiency of production, ability to stockpile the product and the demand. Not all factories operate around the clock, because round the clock labor is also very expensive. Residential electric car charging is the only thing I can think of that's (...) I think a relatively easy development here would be to install large water tanks in people houses, and heat them up/cool them down when energy is cheap, and reuse stored energy when energy is more expensive, to save on heating/AC. But yes, energy these days is so cheap compared to labor and to value added that a complex schemes of idling production when energy prices are high is probably a non-starter in developed countries.
  - ip26 6y ago
    I think a relatively easy development here would be to install large water tanks in people houses, and heat them up/cool them down when energy is cheap Literally already happening. I have a demand response control box retrofitted onto my electric tanked water heater. It shuts off during high rate times.

noneeeed 6y ago

People always nay-say demand management, but here in the UK the National Grid already does this. They have contracts with many large industrial companies who presumably get lower rates in return for being able to turn down their demand on request.

noir_lord 6y ago
They do, agreements are typically in place with companies that use a lot of power but can live without it for a fair few hours. aluminium production/smelting uses a colossal amount of electricity but they can shut down quickly for a few hours (as long as they don't let things get too cold and freeze which is expensive as it destroys equipment and takes a long time to restart - which is what happened in the ransomware attack against norsk, they had to switch to manual line processes to keep it moving). For anyone interested the people responsible for monitoring our grid have a good website with a tonne of info. https://www.nationalgrideso.com/ https://www.nationalgrideso.com/