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It shouldn't be that surprising as wind and solar recieve 10x and 40x more subsidies per unit energy generated vs nuclear. Hydro is even lower. https://files.t

It shouldn't be that surprising as wind and solar recieve 10x and 40x more subsidies per unit energy generated vs nuclear. Hydro is even lower. https://files.texaspolicy.com/uploads/2020/04/23135621/Bennett-LP-Federal-Energy-Subsidies.pdf https://files.texaspolicy.com/uploads/2020/04/23135621/Benne...

toomuchtodo 6y ago
Because solar and wind actually get built and generate power without a decade of planning, construction, and egregious cost overruns. Subsidize what works and is cost effective (solar and wind need no further subsidies to beat fossil and nuclear generation costs). Renewables are fusion at a distance. No waste storage (solar panels can be recycled, wind turbine composites are feedstock for cement kilns or insulation pellets), no expensive or dangerous failure modes (caveat being a turbine failure on a wind turbine, which is usually remote and the damage is minimal), just cheap, clean power you can install almost anywhere. No need to throw shade on what’s going to mitigate climate change. No offense to Texas (regarding your “Texas Public Policy Institute” citation), but they are actively fighting utility scale battery storage by Tesla because it’s going to further damage natural gas generator profits (already ailing from enormous wind output in the state, with ERCOT having no substantial interconnectors to other regional grids). A whole lot if entrenched interests who aren’t going to go quietly into the night.
- PhantomGremlin 6y ago
  Renewables are fusion at a distance. I love that line. What a wonderful way to put it. It's perhaps a meme in the renewables industry? It needs to spread far and wide.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- andromeduck 6y ago
  The overruns happen due to red tape and the overall loss of the heavy industry capability/capacity brought on - and these are the specific problems federal subsidies are supposed to tackle. Deaths per TWH for solar and wind have proven much higher than nuclear and that's before including their dependence on natural gas which is higher still. Utility scale batteries are so far still for peak shaving which is wonderful because the simple cycle plants they displace are super efficient, but won't be replacing combined cycle in our lifetimes. IIRC the issue in texas was due the the way they've separated generation vs distribution responsibilities for their market model but it's been a while since I've taken a close look.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    > The overruns happen due to red tape and the overall loss of the heavy industry capability/capacity brought on - and these are the specific problems federal subsidies are supposed to tackle. This might have mattered a decade or two ago, but that time has passed. Solar and wind have enormous momentum behind them, and they will only continue to scale up faster. [1] [2] > Deaths per TWH for solar and wind have proven much higher than nuclear and that's before including their dependence on natural gas which is higher still. Modern renewables are roughly as safe as nuclear [3]. > Utility scale batteries are so far still for peak shaving which is wonderful because the simple cycle plants they displace are super efficient, but won't be replacing combined cycle in our lifetimes. Enormous amounts of battery manufacturing capacity is coming online for EV production [4]. Elon said on Tesla's last earnings call that demand for batteries for utility scale storage is tremendous and they can't keep up with demand [5]. I'll take the other side of that bet: overbuilt renewables, hydro, HVDC transmission across long distances, and battery storage will be enough to deprecate natural gas from the grid. South Australia's grid operator is already nervously preparing for distributed renewables generating so much power, there will be times where there is no net demand on the grid ("But it’s the latest “first” that is putting the wind up the state government and the market operator: Within one to three years, they say, South Australia could become the first gigawatt scale grid in the world where the growing amount of rooftop solar effectively eliminates grid demand."). [6] [1] https://ourworldindata.org/renewable-energy https://ourworldindata.org/renewable-energy [2] https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2019/6/18/18681591/renewable-energy-china-solar-pv-jobs https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2019/6/18/1868159... [3] https://ourworldindata.org/safest-sources-of-energy#modern-renewables-are-about-as-safe-as-nuclear-energy https://ourworldindata.org/safest-sources-of-energy#modern-r... [4] https://cleantechnica.com/2019/04/14/global-lithium-ion-battery-planned-capacity-update-9-growth-in-a-single-month-march-charts/ https://cleantechnica.com/2019/04/14/global-lithium-ion-batt... [5] https://www.utilitydive.com/news/tremendous-demand-for-stationary-storage-outstrips-teslas-2020-supply-ca/577157/ https://www.utilitydive.com/news/tremendous-demand-for-stati... [6] https://reneweconomy.com.au/south-australia-the-first-big-grid-where-rooftop-solar-could-eliminate-all-demand-73229/ https://reneweconomy.com.au/south-australia-the-first-big-gr...
Guest42 6y ago
Perhaps should look at a wider date range than 2010-2019 in order to determine patterns and magnitude. Perhaps should also consider totals that are net of environmental costs.

toomuchtodo 6y ago

Because solar and wind actually get built and generate power without a decade of planning, construction, and egregious cost overruns. Subsidize what works and is cost effective (solar and wind need no further subsidies to beat fossil and nuclear generation costs). Renewables are fusion at a distance. No waste storage (solar panels can be recycled, wind turbine composites are feedstock for cement kilns or insulation pellets), no expensive or dangerous failure modes (caveat being a turbine failure on a wind turbine, which is usually remote and the damage is minimal), just cheap, clean power you can install almost anywhere. No need to throw shade on what’s going to mitigate climate change. No offense to Texas (regarding your “Texas Public Policy Institute” citation), but they are actively fighting utility scale battery storage by Tesla because it’s going to further damage natural gas generator profits (already ailing from enormous wind output in the state, with ERCOT having no substantial interconnectors to other regional grids). A whole lot if entrenched interests who aren’t going to go quietly into the night.

PhantomGremlin 6y ago
Renewables are fusion at a distance. I love that line. What a wonderful way to put it. It's perhaps a meme in the renewables industry? It needs to spread far and wide.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
andromeduck 6y ago
The overruns happen due to red tape and the overall loss of the heavy industry capability/capacity brought on - and these are the specific problems federal subsidies are supposed to tackle. Deaths per TWH for solar and wind have proven much higher than nuclear and that's before including their dependence on natural gas which is higher still. Utility scale batteries are so far still for peak shaving which is wonderful because the simple cycle plants they displace are super efficient, but won't be replacing combined cycle in our lifetimes. IIRC the issue in texas was due the the way they've separated generation vs distribution responsibilities for their market model but it's been a while since I've taken a close look.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  > The overruns happen due to red tape and the overall loss of the heavy industry capability/capacity brought on - and these are the specific problems federal subsidies are supposed to tackle. This might have mattered a decade or two ago, but that time has passed. Solar and wind have enormous momentum behind them, and they will only continue to scale up faster. [1] [2] > Deaths per TWH for solar and wind have proven much higher than nuclear and that's before including their dependence on natural gas which is higher still. Modern renewables are roughly as safe as nuclear [3]. > Utility scale batteries are so far still for peak shaving which is wonderful because the simple cycle plants they displace are super efficient, but won't be replacing combined cycle in our lifetimes. Enormous amounts of battery manufacturing capacity is coming online for EV production [4]. Elon said on Tesla's last earnings call that demand for batteries for utility scale storage is tremendous and they can't keep up with demand [5]. I'll take the other side of that bet: overbuilt renewables, hydro, HVDC transmission across long distances, and battery storage will be enough to deprecate natural gas from the grid. South Australia's grid operator is already nervously preparing for distributed renewables generating so much power, there will be times where there is no net demand on the grid ("But it’s the latest “first” that is putting the wind up the state government and the market operator: Within one to three years, they say, South Australia could become the first gigawatt scale grid in the world where the growing amount of rooftop solar effectively eliminates grid demand."). [6] [1] https://ourworldindata.org/renewable-energy https://ourworldindata.org/renewable-energy [2] https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2019/6/18/18681591/renewable-energy-china-solar-pv-jobs https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2019/6/18/1868159... [3] https://ourworldindata.org/safest-sources-of-energy#modern-renewables-are-about-as-safe-as-nuclear-energy https://ourworldindata.org/safest-sources-of-energy#modern-r... [4] https://cleantechnica.com/2019/04/14/global-lithium-ion-battery-planned-capacity-update-9-growth-in-a-single-month-march-charts/ https://cleantechnica.com/2019/04/14/global-lithium-ion-batt... [5] https://www.utilitydive.com/news/tremendous-demand-for-stationary-storage-outstrips-teslas-2020-supply-ca/577157/ https://www.utilitydive.com/news/tremendous-demand-for-stati... [6] https://reneweconomy.com.au/south-australia-the-first-big-grid-where-rooftop-solar-could-eliminate-all-demand-73229/ https://reneweconomy.com.au/south-australia-the-first-big-gr...

Guest42 6y ago

Perhaps should look at a wider date range than 2010-2019 in order to determine patterns and magnitude. Perhaps should also consider totals that are net of environmental costs.