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Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them

316 points by Rudism 6y ago

ig1 6y ago
Fundamentally it's hard to see how the current situation is any different from the situation in which anti-trust regulators moved against Nintendo and Sega in the mid-90s. In both cases you have a duopoly which essentially controlled the market and used access to the platform to force fees and conditions onto developers using their gatekeeping abilities.
- starbugs 6y ago
  One difference that comes to mind relatively quickly is that you didn't need a gaming console to live in practice. Try being part of today's society without a smartphone running either Apple or Google software. Apple's goal to shove off 30% of subscription fees, if successful, most likely would lead to more expensive subscription fees for end users. I wonder whether that's finally a case that has a chance to stand in court w.r.t. anti-trust laws. (Driving up end user prices through anti-competitive behavior.)
CameronNemo 6y ago
Which in this context probably means don't operate your business on the assumption that you can have an application in the Apple app store.
CydeWeys 6y ago
"Whining" is an overly prejudicial word choice for this title. These are legitimate issues people have with what Apple is doing, not mere whining. This echoes the "if you don't like it so much then just leave instead of speaking up" dismissal that is so commonly used as a lampshade for suppressing dissent. Not sure if that's the intent here but that's what it comes off as. And this point from the article needs to be strongly rebutted: > I don’t know, it seems silly to me to cry about monopolies. The solution is obvious. Stop making apps for iOS. Sure, you’re going to take a huge hit without access to those consumers [...] This guy doesn't understand what monopolies are and how they work. The whole point is that there are no other alternatives, so you literally cannot "just stop using them". "Just stop patronizing the monopoly" is not a strategy that has ever been successful. The monopoly needs to be broken up.
- Lammy 6y ago
  The author changing "Hey" to "Yo" was also a poor choice considering: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yo_(app) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yo_(app)
  - cryptoz 6y ago
    I thought this was actually about Yo again! Had me tricked out they were relevant again.
  - rob74 6y ago
    Maybe he should have used "Let's go" instead...
  - ilrwbwrkhv 6y ago
    It's fine, you did understand it was Hey didn't you?
    - Lammy 6y ago
      I understand it today with the knowledge of current events fresh in my mind, but it won't age well.
- izzydata 6y ago
  I'd imagine significant changes in the market is the best way to get Apple to do anything. If people keep buying and using all their products then they will keep doing what their doing.
- lordleft 6y ago
  Agreed. There's a false dichotomy here. You can use a product, and as a stakeholder demand change. Refraining from using the product entirely is one way to achieve that, but it's not the only way. Many products evolve because of user-feedback.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    > Many products evolve because of user-feedback. And regulation. See GDPR and CCPA.
aphroz 6y ago
I have never used them, but I guess I am still allowed to complain about how their action impacts my life.
heavyset_go 6y ago
No, I'll do both.
- mixedCase 6y ago
  And that's great if you just want to vent. Just don't expect change.
  - CydeWeys 6y ago
    There's a long history of consumer activism successfully forcing companies to change. We have power. Hell, we've even toppled government regimes this way (looking at you South Africa).
  - Androider 6y ago
    Both the EU and the US are already looking into Apple. Here's the CTO of the Hey app and the chairman of the US Antitrust Subcommittee discussing this very case yesterday: https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/18/21295778/apple-app-store-hey-email-fees-policies-antitrust-wwdc-2020 https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/18/21295778/apple-app-store-... These "nothing's going to change, why even try" attitudes are so lazy. Absolutely things can change, but surely not if we don't try. Microsoft was massively impacted by the antitrust action against them, every decision they made since then has been run through the lens of that verdict (I know lots of people inside MS) and it fundamentally changed their culture and reduced their stranglehold on the industry.
hirundo 6y ago
I can't stop. I've been buying computers and peripherals and gizmos since 1974. I have a house full of them. I code for food. But I've yet to buy my first Apple product or service. Yes, it's mostly because I'm cheap. But it's also because I avoid walled gardens. I feel pretty good about that now. Climb on out, y'all, the weather's fine out here in the jungle.
- fermienrico 6y ago
  Am I the only one who loves Apple products? I love MacOS. I love iOS. I love all things Apple. Customer service is totally top notch. Physical quality is excellent, of course I have my wishes and pet peeves (don’t like cold aluminum, stupid touchbar, keyboard!). I’m willing to pay even double the cost of other cheaply made products from Asus, Acer, Samsung, etc. Not to mention the whole ecosystem thing and I trust Apple with my data - more than Google and I can’t even think about Microsoft (windows is a billboard of ads). If China had a competitor to Apple for OS/hardware (not talking about Foxconn, that’s a ODM), they would need to literally convert to democracy before they can even get in the playing field. They’re not even in the same league, not even the same sport right now. Initially, I was apathetic. Then I liked Apple products. Then I started loving them. They’re arrogant, they care about you, they made mistakes, they charge a lot of premium - I love them. They must have done something right to win me?
  - ryneandal 6y ago
    I'm with you entirely. I love what they're doing with hardware. I am fascinated with their SoC/SiPs. My kids are wildly successful with iOS/MacOS UIs in comparison to the competiton (especially ChromeOS, good lord is that a usability nightmare), and I think this speaks volumes about the quality of their ui/ux investment.
    - eyerony 6y ago
      > especially ChromeOS, good lord is that a usability nightmare My dad recently got one of these to have something simpler since all he really needs is a web browser, and damn, you aren't kidding. Like, the OS isn't even that "big" here, guys, how is it so thoroughly mediocre? The accessibility settings in particular are like something from the 90s, after being used to what modern iOS and macOS offer. Felt like a half-assed afterthought. Didn't work very well. Considering much of the target market for it is old people and kids, that's incredibly inconsiderate. Oh and then of course the settings screen itself was hard to navigate and poorly organized, but that much I expected (google is weirdly bad at settings screens across basically all their products, IME)
kennywinker 6y ago
So author would have us abandon a duopoly, and give google a monopoly? That should work out well. Anybody remember microsoft in the 90s?
viburnum 6y ago
Anti-trust problems can't be solved by individual consumer choices.
- Bud 6y ago
  Especially when there is no legitimate anti-trust issue to begin with.
  - kennywinker 6y ago
    In your opinion. In my opinion, apple is using its monopoly (or duopoly) power to force companies like hey into business relationships they would not enter into otherwise. Which represents an abuse of their position.
bjarneh 6y ago
Not all can freely choose platforms. Clearly a fully free one would be ideal, but unless you do web development, who has that kind of luxury?
cmsj 6y ago
> The solution is obvious. Stop making apps for iOS. Sure, you’re going to take a huge hit without access to those consumers The solution is obvious. Sabotage your own business. Sure, you're going to go out of business without any customers.
- zepto 6y ago
  But that’s the whole point of having principles. It costs something to uphold them, which you deem worthwhile to pay. There are plenty of other ways to make money in software without needing to do business with companies you deem unethical.
  - starbugs 6y ago
    What serious business, be it B2C or B2B, in today's software world, doesn't require a mobile app on either iOS and Android or a desktop app on Chrome/Windows/macOS?
    - zepto 6y ago
      Are you saying all three of Microsoft, Google, and Apple are unethical?
      - viklove 6y ago
        Unequivocally yes, MS, Google, and Apple are all deeply unethical. This is proven in their business practices as well as their manufacturing practices. The problem is we live in a society that values money over all else, including human suffering and fair access to markets.
        jpttsn 6y ago
        It must be even easier to stop working with these unethical companies if you don’t value money that much.
- enriquto 6y ago
cinquemb 6y ago
Or root, mod, buy on secondary markets and avoid updates, can't expect them to not piss the pool if you let em…
jhloa2 6y ago
"I know that the devices are pretty and feel nice and maybe your friends all have one and you want to signal that you’re one of the crowd, but it’s not worth it." That's quite an over simplification of the appeal of an iPhone and comes off as him whining about whiners. I'd like to switch back to a flip phone from a privacy perspective, but there's a few conveniences that would be hard to go without. I refuse to buy any more Android phones as I've only had issue after issue with software and hardware, and Apple seems like the lesser of two evils. It feels like we're stuck in an American political party system where our only reasonable options are to choose between two companies that only have their own best interests in mind.
- denni9th 6y ago
  The issue is app stores. Most app developers/companies won't deploy to any stores other than Google's and Apple's, so when it comes to choosing a device that can run most apps its IPhone or Android. A solution here is to introduce a standard mobile app format, with standard APIs to interact with the OS. Then app developers write one app that can run on any supported device. But good luck getting the duopoly to agree to that.
  - thephyber 6y ago
    > A solution here is to introduce a standard mobile app format, with standard APIs to interact with the OS. I would argue that's exactly what Android is. It's a mobile OS with a mobile app ecosystem of APIs. But the fact that no government forced all smartphones to use it means it didn't and likely won't happen. Also, governments don't seem to move at the speed of iOS/Android features, so taking that hypothetical path would have likely meant all mobile phone features slowed a lot. > The issue is app stores. Another solution is for governments to enforce reasonable access to all mobile app companies and to make sure the purchases and data are portable to all similar devices (say all smartphones or all game consoles). It's not that hard to make the coupling of the app binary to the device tight but the license to use the software portable.
hkarthik 6y ago
If you don’t like how Apple does business, stop using their products. If you don’t like how Google does business, stop using their products. If you don’t like how either one does business, stop using technology all together. I am being facetious, but mainly to illustrate the point that we now have a series of entrenched monopolies in the tech world so “stop using X” isn’t a realistic solution.
- enriquto 6y ago
  On the other hand, for us "tech people" it is actually easier to stop using Google and Apple and serve as example for others. Pushing for anti-monopoly legislation needs not be the only thing that we do to solve that problem. Moreover, for people who are not citizens of the USA (the large majority of the people!), there's no other clear course of action.
  - FakeRemore 6y ago
    > On the other hand, for us "tech people" it is actually easier to stop using Google and Apple and serve as example for others. Pushing for anti-monopoly legislation needs not be the only thing that we do to solve that problem. Are you suggesting people stop using smartphones altogether?
    - pathseeker 6y ago
      Depends on if you consider running a phone with Google services removed "supporting Google".
    - Brakenshire 6y ago
      There are services that operate on Android with open source implementations of the Google proprietary services which have been designed for lock-in. https://e.foundation https://e.foundation packages up the work from Lineage and MicroG and sells phones with the software preinstalled.
    - enriquto 6y ago
      > Are you suggesting people stop using smartphones altogether? I do not have a smartphone and my life is alright, but I was not suggesting that. You can certainly have a smartphone that is not controlled by neither Google nor Apple. For example, by installing an OS like LineageOS, or even some "freer" stuff that is out there.
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recursivedoubts 6y ago
I recently bought a system76 lemur pro after being a long time macbook user: https://system76.com/laptops/lemur https://system76.com/laptops/lemur I will not claim that there are no trade offs, but I find it a very productive machine, and very light weight. I use an external monitor and keyboard, plugged in to a usb-c hub, and it works well. I am hoping that the mudita pure can replace my iphone: https://mudita.com/products/pure/ https://mudita.com/products/pure/ I do wish someone would do a not-dumb-but-not-too-smart e-ink phone with basic maps and a physical keyboard, but I recognize that I am likely a market of one for that product.
- u6eexrtxjjxjexr 6y ago
  Not e-ink, but Nokia 800 does have Google Maps.
  - RandomBacon 6y ago
    How about OpenStreetMap? If I'm ditching Android to get away from Google, I'd rather not use Google Maps. However I do concede that only having an run some of the time is better than an bad OS running all the time.
- komali2 6y ago
  Oh wow 2.2lbs, this is the first time I've seen an actual competitor to the Thinkpad x1 carbon.
mperham 6y ago
This strikes me as one step removed from that meme: "I see you complain about modern farming practices and yet still eat. Interesting..."
DiabloD3 6y ago
"I'm going to make one of those unpopular opinions, but alas, it must be said: It is far easier to just drop Apple support entirely." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23286883 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23286883 (Its becoming more popular! Yaaaaaay!)
lazyjones 6y ago
> Stop buying iPhones. Seriously. They’re overpriced and locked-down and controlled by Apple in infuriating ways that hurt you, even if Apple has succeeded in keeping you ignorant of that fact. I'll take your word for it... not! iPhones are fine, everyone who has used both current Android and iOS devices can see that. It's not hurting me that "Hey" has to pay 30% for their subscriptions. Hotels, restaurants and other companies have to pay similar rates to their respective dominating "gatekeepers" as well. For the consumer it doesn't matter. For someone like "Hey" the way to go is to pay up now and if they are successful, they might be able to negotiate better terms later.
tambourine_man 6y ago
Not like there’s much of a choice. Windows… well, offends my sensibilities and Linux doesn’t run Adobe suite.
duxup 6y ago
The conclusion sort of "undoes" the title... and I kinda hate articles like that. I just read a bunch of stuff and we get to. "Well what you just read doesn't work, maybe something else, bye..."
jonny_eh 6y ago
> The Solution for Consumers > Stop buying iPhones There's the problem with this argument. Consumers are suffering, but don't realize it. The lack of competition, and the increased cost to developers, are depriving consumers of innovative products like Hey, but they don't know it. You can't expect consumer to know when they buy a phone, that it will cause a future company to fail to launch an innovative new product. It's this very reason why we have anti-trust laws.
- nemothekid 6y ago
  Please. You can argue it's bad for developers, but saying it's bad for consumers is unsubstantiated and just an appeal to emotion. Whether or nor other not the cut is fair, Apple has done an amazing job running the app store - as well as the broader platform in delivering a platform used by millions that is both free from malware and spyware.
  - jonny_eh 6y ago
    > Apple has done an amazing job running the app store It can be true that they've run a great app store, but also true that some aspects of it are bad for developers and consumers.
- jpttsn 6y ago
  >Will cause to fail Is what seems so entitled about this thing. If your company/innovation relies on free access, but in reality that access costs 30%, your idea is not solid. Suppose there’s no iPhone. No customers bought it. They all want to run arbitrary software. In this world, is Hey a good idea? If that’s not the world you live in, should you invest in Hey pretending it’s another world?
jpswade 6y ago
> an email service I will be calling Yo in this article Why?
BMorearty 6y ago
Disclaimer: I only read the subject line and the first paragraph. Years ago, when Internet Explorer had market dominance, I was working on a website and I wanted to use a feature that IE didn’t support yet. I asked a question on a forum about how to do it in IE. One of the replies was "just stop using IE." Dude. It's not for me. It's for my customers.
- unreal37 6y ago
  How quickly people forget history.
- RandomBacon 6y ago
  Put up a banner that says IE is not supported, download one of these browsers instead. If you say "No" because it will drive away your customers, then it absolutely is for you. It sounds like you were putting profits before principles.
  - jonny_eh 6y ago
    And in the case of iOS, you put a banner on a website saying "Buy a similar $1K Android instead"?
    - RandomBacon 6y ago
      A $100 Android can run a modern browser.
      - jonny_eh 6y ago
        So tell a user of an iPhone 11 Pro Max to get a $100 Android phone to use Hey?
        RandomBacon 6y ago
        If they want to use an Android-only app. Just like I would have to buy a $400 iPhone if I want to use an iOS-only app.
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chooseaname 6y ago
Who is this person and why do they feel they're an authority?
Bud 6y ago
Seems to me there is a lot of heat and very little light flying around on the entire App Store issue. A lot of those "whining" the loudest——although let's call it legitimate debate instead of whining——don't seem to be fully grasping all the benefits of a walled ecosystem along with the drawbacks. I don't think debating this issue gets us very far unless we're intellectually honest with each other about all the benefits as well as the drawbacks.
pknerd 6y ago
Pardon, but it is actually the author who is whining here. DHH has raised some very valid points, especially when many businesses rely on Apple Store. There is nothing wrong to talk about it, especially when Apple itself provides a "web option" instead of IAP to avoid X% of cuts.
not2b 6y ago
No, they haven't earned the right to exploit their monopoly this way. It's a monopoly because the only way to get an app onto an iPhone (at least, without rooting the device) is via the app store. The writer thinks that it is perfectly appropriate for Apple to steal from the poor and not from the rich, exploiting their power to score every dollar they can get. But antitrust law exists for a reason, and though the current US administration isn't very interested in enforcing it, the EU and Japan are less likely to let Apple continue to get away with their practices.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Except what counts is what law defines as monopoly, and the fact that Android owns the European market, makes it even less relevant.
jacknews 6y ago
Adam Smith would disagree I think. Apple have a quasi monopoly and are imposing an 'absurd tax' on any other business operating in their fiefdom.
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gdsdfe 6y ago
so the solution to Apple's (or google's) behaviour is to stop using their stores? basically stop having a business altogether?
voodooranger 6y ago
I will continue to use Apple but I pulled both of my apps from their app store years ago due to maltreatment. I don’t use their app store as a consumer either. IMO it’s a wasteland. Unpopular opinion but I also think it should be completely up to them to set their revenue share. Let their app store wither away as developers create platform-independent web applications instead.
kilo_bravo_3 6y ago
Nooooo!!!! I am sustained by Apple hatred. It is an essential part of my balanced diet. Every time someone complains about how expensive Apple is I grow a centimeter and every time someone bitches about their App Store policies I gain a month of lifespan. I am now 40km tall and will live for 50,000 years but ultimately a lack of whining about Apple would see me wither away and die.
- ta23576025 6y ago
  This is such a funny comment in a thread with so much divisiveness. Apple's position sucks for those who rely on their customers (and yes, it is THEIR customers) for a living. No matter how much we complain, they developed their ecosystem.
- stOneskull 6y ago
  when those old folks warned of worshipping false idols, i wonder if they could've imagined these big shiny apples and Gs
sergioisidoro 6y ago
I wouldn't say "stop using" but in a lot of businesses iOS seems be always be launched first with Android as an after-though. I think this backslash is partially about Apple falling from its pedestal and favouritism.
Mugwort 6y ago
Isn't this the tipping point when a company crosses the line, becomes a monopoly, restricts consumer choices, and suffocates competition by leveraging the entire playing field? We've been through that before. Sad to see Apple of all companies turn evil.
yingw787 6y ago
I really like the iPhone. Maybe not the full Apple ecosystem so much (everything else I own is Linux), but that's only because I think Linux is the best fit for me. iPhone is the same way, and Apple's business practices don't change my fit with my phone, no matter how disappointing they may be. I think that's why many of us use Apple. My happy place would be something like "Heroku for mobile", where you can jswrap a React.js app into an HTMLView or something like that, and do 'git push ios master'. Notifications API, localStorage API, and maybe authentication / session persistence API are all I really care about natively (like Firebase); React Native is too heavy. Add in a TestFlight "permanent beta" invite, or the ability to build the app from a remote mac (https://www.macincloud.com/ https://www.macincloud.com/) with a lambda and transfer it to my phone (...somehow), and I'll just use the app store for things I don't make myself (which hopefully should be less and less).
- u6eexrtxjjxjexr 6y ago
  Isn't that what a PWA is? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_web_application https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_web_application
  - yingw787 6y ago
    PWAs are going in that direction, but they don't have access to native storage, notifications, and other stuff. They're still mostly webapps, which is great for portability but not great for mobile UI/UX. I want the "native-ness" of React Native (or really, true native) combined with the flexibility of a webapp. Reduce mobile down to another build target, but still not give up access to native APIs.
rydre 6y ago
Is this satire?
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unreal37 6y ago
"It seems silly to me to cry about monopolies." Oh, wait. So let's go back in time. When Microsoft was sued and forced to allow other browsers onto Windows. IE was the default and was free. Microsoft forced OEMs to pay for Windows for every computer they made, whether or not they installed Windows on it. Effectively killing out other operating systems. If you don't believe in monopolies... if the solution was "stop buying computers that come pre-installed with Windows"... Or is it that you don't believe Apple is a monopoly but you're still happy Microsoft was forced to allow other browsers to be the default in Windows?
tracerbulletx 6y ago
Apple, Google, Amazon, Facebook, MS in the 90s? Which one isn't doing things people consider to be absolutely awful in some way or another.So given that, I stop buying iPhones, and do what buy an android phone? I have not really improved the moral calculus of the world. What we should do is insist on moral behavior from companies across the board, equally and fairly applied to all organizations big and small. If someone is doing something wrong, it's wrong and it's ok to call it out.
nvr219 6y ago
My job is to fix other people's technology / computer problems. When I'm not working I want to use a smartphone that does what I need, behaves as expected every time, and respects my privacy concerns. I want to spend as little time as possible configuring, fixing, or troubleshooting my phone. The iPhone is the closest thing to what I want. It's not 100% but it's better than any other smartphone I've come across at that price point ($400 for iPhone SE).
dustingetz 6y ago
Can't use Apple, can't use Google ... can't have a cell phone. Who needs that?
Androider 6y ago
If you make something like say, oh an email client, excluding the 1.5 BILLION people on the iOS platform is not just a handicap, it makes your entire business non-viable. So now Apple is the gatekeeper of new businesses and services. Fortune 500's and small one man shops alike have been terrified to speak up against Apple, because Apple has the ability to deliver a death-sentence by kicking you out of their store on a whim or simply because an app reviewer takes a personal interest in you. I think what the Basecamp folks want is entirely reasonable, and Apple's behavior is entirely anti-competitive: Basecamp doesn't care to be in the app store, nor do they want to benefit from the app store discovery and other services for free. What they want is the OPTION to have a link on their web page, that when clicked, prompts the user to install the notarized/signed/whatever application. Basically you'd just have the "double click the power button twice to install" card pop-up immediately, bypassing the entire store. Do that, and Apple can charge whatever they want in the store. Suggestions that this somehow subverts the quality of the platform or the experience is entirely bullshit, Basecamp pays their developer fees and notarizes their apps on Mac, there's zero reason this wouldn't work on iOS except Apple's greed and anti-competitive behavior, and let's not forget that sweet, sweet 30% cut of every single business and service under the sun.
- ntsplnkv2 6y ago
  This is simply not true. There are more on the android platform, and therefore enough for viability. The reality is people want all the benefits of the iOS world without paying anything for it.
  - learc83 6y ago
    >There are more on the android platform, and therefore enough for viability. Is that true for customers who are interested in a high end email service that costs $100 a year? I'd wager that the vast majority of people in that segment are on iPhones.
    - ntsplnkv2 6y ago
      Honestly, I don't think that segment really exists. The ones that would search that out will just as likely be on android as iPhone. If 33% of such an app is enough to cause this much angst, it makes me think it just isn't that popular.
tilolebo 6y ago
"Now let’s say they decide to offer a new service that allows content providers to reach Yo’s subscribers–like a newsletter or something." I stopped reading after this and came here to say that we all know Hey would NEVER do that. This is exactly the kind of shit they fight against. So it's not just hypocrisy from their side, they're fighting for an idea. Of course the PR also can't hurt, but it's not like they planned it.
yusyusyus 6y ago
How about we regulate them instead? We can force them to change using the power of the state.
whatever1 6y ago
We need the same solution as the one Microsoft implemented in Windows N. Once you set-up your new phone (android, iOS whatever), you get to select your default app store. Different stores will have different cost / curation structures, but it will be the user’s decision to make. The OS manufacturer can still require that all of the apps need to be digitally signed to allow them to be installed, regardless of the store, to guarantee system safety. Mobile App stores in 2020 are what browsers were to Windows in 90’s.
buo 6y ago
As an alternative solution that doesn't depend on defining what a monopoly is, or how to boycott a large brand, how about forcing companies to apply the same terms to everybody? I think at least part of the core of the problem is that Apple applies their subscription requirements differently depending on who owns the app. That is what I think needs to stop. If Yo has to do it one way, then Google, Microsoft, Netflix and Spotify should have to do it the same way too.
cardenasrjl 6y ago
Apple :D, for long time you've been doing whatever you want.
Despegar 6y ago
I mean lets be honest. Developers actually like the iPhone as a development platform. They like how much money they make from it. They like the products themselves. They just don't want to pay the Apple commission or be restricted in any way by their rules. Unfortunately those things are tied at the hip. The very rules and product decisions about the platform is what made it the popular and lucrative market it is in the first place.
jcstauffer 6y ago
Unpopular opinion: the 30% that Apple charges includes customer acquisition cost. As a thought experiment, if Hey adds In-App Purchase for subscriptions, but everyone who downloads the app has first signed up for their service due to their marketing methods (an increasing likelihood considering this controversy), then nobody will use the In App Purchase, and Hey will send $0.00 to Apple. If someone discovers the App in the App Store due to an organic search for Email clients, then they are likely to sign up via In App Purchase, and Hey pays Apple an affiliate fee of 30% of first year revenue, and 15% of lifetime revenue after that. This is a customer that Hey would not have had if not for the App Store, so getting 75-80% of lifetime value seems better than not acquiring the customer in the first place. I realize it's not entirely as clean as that, but cast in that way, the amounts seem merely expensive, and not egregious. (not to defend any of Apple's behavior - particularly the most recent letter sent).
- starbugs 6y ago
  Try making your app appear in search results via organic store searches. Good luck. In my experience, you will likely either pay for search results or do marketing on your own using other channels. Both are paid and Apple doesn't do anything for it. There's really no good case for taking 30% as long as there's no real marketing benefit from the App Store.
- beowulfey 6y ago
  I 100% agree. I think if Apple was consistent across all apps (i.e. they allow users to subscribe outside of their ecosystem with no restriction, but only charged 30% if purchased through ecosystem) nobody would be complaining about the 30% at all. The major issue is that a smaller app is being penalized for not having the clout that someone like Netflix has and being able to bypass the rule.
- ryanar 6y ago
  Hey is arguing that they want the choice to unlist from the app store entirely so their client would never surface in organic search results, and have no IAP link. That way the only audience they gain are from people they themselves marketed to and purchased a subscription on the web. But it's unfair to Apple! They get 0.00 for this! Bullshit. Every Apple customer who wants to use HEY gets a great mobile experience to encourage them to keep buying Apple products. If enough services like Dropbox, Netflix, Spotify, were not available on iPhone, the consumer might purchase the Android phone on their next upgrade, or the company might switch their fleet to Android devices that actually support their business software. Basecamp / Hey is providing value to Apple's products by enriching their ecosystem. They should have the choice if they want to pay a 30% cut for organic search traffic in Apple's App Store.
pphysch 6y ago
This debacle is peak popcorn. "HN Darling Reinvents Email Except Really Expensive Without SMTP Support And Asserts That Apple Is Being A Meanie For Enforcing Their Revenue Model" Yet no one is going to divest from Apple because profit/weird consumer ideology. Also not precluding the possibility that it's all (or mostly) a big marketing act from what is clearly a marketing-first product (Hey).
- bzb3 6y ago
  Wow, Hey doesn't have SMTP support? That's ridiculous.
  - freehunter 6y ago
    Well, Hey isn't trying to be yet another email service. The idea is that SMTP does not support the kind of messaging that Hey is built around.
noisy_boy 6y ago
I have seen mainly three groups of people who continue to use Apple products. Those who want their phones, computers etc to just work together and don't want to spend time on this. Then there are those who want to get out of the walled garden but there is too much lock-in to bother spending time on it because they have other things to do. And finally those who think Apple products are aspirational/status symbol. So when it comes to switching from Apple, the first group doesn't need to, the second can't afford to and the third doesn't want to. Nothing much we can do about it.
smt88 6y ago
Users can stop using Apple with minimal consequences. Many businesses can't. Apple puts tolls around users, and people think the pricing model is unfair. That's what this uproar is about. It has nothing to do with consumers beyond the fact that consumers see how unfair the pricing model is.
specialist 6y ago
What's the monopolistic case against Apple? Is Apple anticompetitive? Here's my grievances, but I don't know if any aspects are actually monopolistic. Are they competing against their own partners? Their stock apps have remained vanilla enough that there seems to be enough oxygen for alternatives for premium and power users. They've definitely done monopsony. Business strategy wise, they've been wicked clever. It's always made me uncomfortable. And I'm pretty grumpy their control of the supply chain doesn't permit third party repairs. I get that they're pulling out all the stops combatting counterfeiters and fraud, which is easily pro-consumer, but there's got to be a balance. I've always felt their 30% cut from App Store is excessive, unfair. But I don't know what a reasonable cut would be. Cost of doing business plus reasonable margin? Pay to play schemes, like search ads and paid placement, are complete bullshit. Aka payola. But is that monopolistic? All the "marketplaces" need the rule of law. Transparency, accountability, fair and impartial courts, appeals processes. This applies to apps, content, personas. No one entity can be allowed be legislator, police, judge, jury, and executioner. This is the biggest apparent conflict of interest, anti-competitive, anti-consumer, anti-democratic behavior of all these "marketplace" hosts, Apple included. I'm still pissed off about the wage fixing. Sharing the bounty more fairly, broadly would diffuse a lot of the festering resentment.
wisemanwillhear 6y ago
> The idea that they have a “monopoly” seems patently ridiculous to me. A monopoly over what? Their own brand of computing devices that they are the sole manufacturers of? Operating systems for which they are the sole developers and maintainers? I'm not sure where I fall on this, but I feel this is less direct than some people make it sound. I can also see the argument that the iOS phone has become it's own market segment. It might be a bit of stretch to make this comparison, but we don't just a have a market segment for electronic communication devices, we break that down further. Why can't the smart phone market be broken down further as well?
drocer88 6y ago
Serious question: Is there a non Google app store/Apple app store based smart phone that gives user control, like on a Linux box? Duopoly , walled gardens, spying is getting annoying. I would like to stop using them.
dr-detroit 6y ago
I get by fine without an iwatch etc. I live as a second class citizen but the tradeoff is fine in my book.
tobyhinloopen 6y ago
Oh right like Android/Google is better
vvectorr 6y ago
Incredible cacophony of whinging cranks. On the gradient of human needs this falls to about the lowest rung. The word 'monopoly' thrown around here has been made vague enough to be weaponized -- when in reality the ingredient to an actual monopoly is that the buyer has no viable alternative in the marketplace... which you all know otherwise. Think about this critically: commodities in general are marked up at 30%. The 'mom and pop' liquor store down your street sells bottles at least that. Is it a monopoly because they're the only store in a ten block radius? Don't conflate your laziness and desire for the highest status-signalling pocket computer for lack of actual marketplace choice. The good folks at Basecamp, or really anyone here complaining, who owns an iPhone, are hypocrites in self denial. Among the various morally-questionable actions Apple does for growth, this isn't some atrocity. Don't @me
komali2 6y ago
> Let’s say we tear down Apple through legal means–we send them the message that because they’re so successful they no longer have a right to dictate their own terms around what apps they allow on their devices and how much money they can charge developers to have access to their platform. Just think of all the ways that precedent could be abused against other companies. Ok, how about we instead tear down this idea that it's legally OK for a company to sell you a computer, and then prevent you from installing whatever software you want on it? Doesn't sound like we have any bad precedents then! And, apple can keep their app store if they want, and pitch it as a curated, safe walled garden.
munro 6y ago
Perhaps I’m wrong, but I imagine if I wanted to stop using Google, and created my own web based spreadsheet software, or video conferencing software, that I would face a legal battle with these big tech companies if it did end up becoming successful. Searching for spreadsheet patents returns a lot of really banal concepts [1]. Maybe they wouldn’t hold up in court, but having been served before, it’s a very terrifying experience. Or, if you create a successful competing product, you’ll probably just get bought out (whatsapp, keybase, instagram). [1] https://patents.google.com/patent/US8332878B2/en?q=Spreadsheet+google&oq=Spreadsheet+google https://patents.google.com/patent/US8332878B2/en?q=Spreadshe...
truculent 6y ago
Quit whining about the internet and just stop using it.
ocdtrekkie 6y ago
The article completely ignores that the only way most consumers can not buy an iPhone is to buy an Android, which is as bad or worse, depending on what particular concerns you have. (Apple's got a slightly stronger walled garden, Google has far worse privacy and security. At the end of the day, their app store models are the same.)
tayistay 6y ago
If you look at the selection of apps on the Mac App Store, where developers aren't forced to use the store, it's pretty easy to see that their 30% generally outweighs the usefulness of the service. So, semantic discussions of monopoly aside, Apple is charging a rent. In general, we should be against rent-seeking in technology.
ogre_codes 6y ago
Everything is a trade-off. I use iOS because I want a smartphone and I'd prefer Apple's restrictions to Google's data-gathering. I'd like to see iOS be better and I'd like to see Apple's App Store policies improved. If I choose to use Apple products because I find the trade-offs inherent in using iOS/ MacOS, I don't lose the right to expect better of them and want those products to improve.
- lcnmrn 6y ago
  By not using Android you're missing a lot of good free apps that don't display ads.
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    > By not using Android you're missing a lot of good free apps that don't display ads. My post wasn't meant to push one perspective or another, merely to point out that wanting your platform to be better doesn't mean you want to switch. If I was on Android, I would complain a lot about Google's advertising policies, then someone would say "Quit whining about Google and just stop using them".
wallstprog 6y ago
It's not that simple -- as Churchill said about democracy: "It's the worst form of government ever invented -- except for all the other ones". I switched to Mac almost 10 years ago, and I'm basically pretty happy with it. So when it looks like Apple is planning to screw it up, I get upset -- I don't want to switch again (it was a huge PITA), and there's nothing out there even remotely close.
deegles 6y ago
If you don't like Amazon, good luck not using anything that touches AWS.
- xenonite 6y ago
  yes, even Apple uses AWS for some of their services.
rdiddly 6y ago
...Apple stepped in and essentially said "Nah, fuck that, you either implement in-app subscriptions in your app and give us our 30% or you can go suck an egg"... For the record they actually said https://twitter.com/dhh/status/1272976901762478080/photo/1 https://twitter.com/dhh/status/1272976901762478080/photo/1 ...but thanks for translating it into mid-oughts hip-hopper mixed with 1940s farmer/GI/zoot-suiter!
- rdiddly 6y ago
  No, a paraphrase bears a burden of being better than the original in some way, otherwise just link to the original. Brevity is usually the default improvement being sought, but ideally there would also be honesty, or maybe even, dare we hope, eloquence - perhaps the use of some kind of metaphor or other dimension that makes clear the meaning of the original in a way that's better than the original itself. Translating into young-person conformist speech patterns like "nah" and "fuck that" doesn't count, because everybody already understands Apple's non-hip way of saying it. And then it turns suddenly from hip and nowish, to talking about sucking eggs, which hasn't been uttered since everybody's grandparents gave up poultry farming and moved to the city after the war. That's the clue that it's a disingenuous characterization of the original, which tends to be the case almost every time anyone says "So basically you're saying..." on the internet. Maybe this was an attempt at satire and I just got whooshed? On the plus side the paraphrase did achieve brevity, and clarity (at least when compared to Apple's sugarcoating and contortion).
crazygringo 6y ago
Wow, this is a long-winded semi-rant that goes through a lot of contradictory points. Summing up, it seems to take two opposite sides, the first aligned with the title: 1) Don't take legal action against Apple because "think of all the ways that precedent could be abused against other companies" and "it seems silly to me to cry about monopolies", so "The solution is obvious. Stop making apps for iOS" because if you "can’t survive without the ability to suckle at Apple’s teat then you’ve made bad decisions" and "Stop buying iPhones" and "Don’t buy Macs while you’re at it" ...but the second totally opposed to it: 2) "In reality, I know none of these solutions are actually going to come to fruition", "Maybe the ultimate solution is an anti-trust legal one", and "My hopes for such legal action ever succeeding are not particularly high." But as in most cases, reality isn't that black and white. The author is ultimately correct in saying "boycott Apple" is simply not viable, as it should be -- it would be like taking a sledgehammer to level a nail. Unfortunately, the author is being incredibly condescending and unrealistic that a business shouldn't depend on the iOS market, which is something like 2/3 of all mobile app store revenue. But government intervention here doesn't mean a slippery slope -- that's a common but totally unfounded fallacy. Economists are well acquainted with all the different ways markets can fail, and how targeted governmental remedies are required for healthy market competition to function. Identifying that Apple is abusing its market position in one area to stifle competition in another is easy to show, if we write appropriate legislation to define it (applying to Amazon etc. as well). The only question is what remedy best serves consumers: whether to treat this like a monopoly situation that gets broken up (force Apple to allow apps and app stores that bypass Apple's walled garden) or regulated like public utilities (the security and trustworthiness of the App Store is valuable, so set a yearly profit limit of e.g. 12% to that segment of the company).
lalos 6y ago
What I find interesting is that developers usually complain about the one time app purchase, saying that this doesn't incentivize big updates and the way around it is to use in-app purchases. Some even propose an update app fee. Also, developers complain that Apple is squeezing a fee from every transaction. Which seems like the same problem, Apple wants that constant stream of revenue just like developers want that constant stream of revenue to incentivize updates. Anybody else notices this symmetry? On a side note, this could be fixed with 1) Unpopular apps don't pay a fee until they reach a certain amount of downloads. This promotes apps created by devs just starting out. 2) Fees only apply until an upper limit is met which corresponds to the total cost they generate. i.e. Every year the count resets, the first 50k downloads have 30% fee, the next 100k have a 20% fee, the next 200k have a 10% fee, etc. If you play with this parameters there might be a win-win scenario for everybody. I wonder if Apple will propose something before EU or USA governments start looking deeper into the problem. I'm guessing Apple and Google lobbyist are measuring the temperature of Congress right now to see how to proceed.
programmarchy 6y ago
Don’t like Apple? Just build your own multinational global corporate hegemonic superpower, bro.
deleted 6y ago
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mstolpm 6y ago
In my opinion, developers do have the right to articulate critics - be it towards Apple or any other gatekeeper. Just stopping to use/develop for a platform isn't enough. However, I feel the discussion often misses a central point when it is focused on "developers" against "Apple" (or be it Google): the interest of the customer. Of course, a developer wants to maximize return, as wants Apple. But what about the users? As a user, I love discounts on iTunes gift cards. I love Apple handling subscriptions instead of a developer I don't know. I choose iOS because of the perceived better support and lifetime value (and perhaps even the feel of some security and privacy, but of course, one can argue about that). And I even like the editorial content of the AppStore, which is some form of marketing but also a form of recommendation. As a customer, the AppStore is much more than a simple storefront, some sometimes wonky review processing and some servers and payment processing: it is a 360-degree-experience. Sometimes, as a customer I'm frustrated by the AppStore as well, but I would not buy my apps at a developers site. I even buy Mac Apps in the AppStore if I can, for similar reasons. As a developer, I sometimes hate myself for not giving other developers more than 60 or 70 percent of the share. But on the other hand, I remember the old days when software was sold on CDROMs and was only available at Frys and other large electronics/computer shops. Getting your software listed there cost much much more than 30 percent ... and you had to prepay all these expenses as the developer/publisher.
- fbelzile 6y ago
  Exactly. We had a choice to go buy it from Frys -OR- other stores like Best Buy -OR- from the developer themselves. There is no choice with iOS. A band that I like released a CD. I buy a CD from one of their live shows. I should have the right to play the CD on my CD player without having to pay 30% of all CD sales to the maker of the CD player. I don't mind paying a 30% cut to a store that made it more convenient for me to buy the CD (even if the store is owned by the CD player manufacturer). The problem here is that I shouldn't HAVE to go to that ONE CD store to buy ALL of my CD's.
- jonny_eh 6y ago
  Should Apple ban non App Store apps from Macs too? Doesn't your argument extend to computers? Why would phones or tablets be different.
miniyarov 6y ago
Apple is just using its position and over-protecting their app store by bringing more bureaucracy to for developers. In my case, when I submitted https://zudvpn.com https://zudvpn.com to their app store, they require me to be a business entity because they require all VPN apps to be a business entity. Their argument is that VPN apps should not log their users, however, there is no proof that public VPN apps won't log the users.
paultopia 6y ago
Easy to say, were Android not a complete dumpster fire of an OS. Stop using the iPhone and... buy into an ecosystem where every phone manufacturer installs random crapware on your device, google gets to spy on you, and whether or not you get security updates is a game of Russian roulette? Nah.
coronadisaster 6y ago
That's what I have been doing for more than 20 years... Apple didn't really ever change, not even when Steve Jobs died. Too many anti-user rules...
elvecinodeabajo 6y ago
Apple a monopoly? Letting Google become the monopoly? Once again Linux is forgotten in the scene and Linux community means nothing. Stop taking profits as a reference, there's a world beyond your iPhone.
hinkley 6y ago
I am a long-time Apple customer, but my first reaction to this title was, "well I've never used cigarettes, does that mean I can't 'whine' about them?" There is, to an extent, 'second hand smoke' in any industry with a dominant player who doesn't agree with your sense of ethics. The App Store and its imitators have changed the landscape of software that is available to you and I. I didn't run to OS X so much as I ran away from the chaos and aggravation of custom drivers and kernel compiles for Linux laptops (compiling on a subnotebook is quite painful), and doing tech support for friends & family, so the pickiness of the App Store solves a huge pain point that I am willing to compromise on other things to get. That it's a compromise means that the dissenters have a point, it's just not enough for me. When you are trying to keep conceptual coherence in a thing, you have to reject a lot of ideas that would be really cool to do. It doesn't mean people aren't entitled to grieve, and it doesn't mean that you will always pick the correct winners ("why did my idea get rejected but your stupid ideas 1, 2, and 3 were included?"), and in some cases the bigger person would encourage someone to 'spin off' that idea. If the market of ideas gets too constrained then it's bad for everyone. I suppose you could say that I want them to win, but only as long as that doesn't mean that everybody else has to lose. Like Chrome beating Microsoft without taking out Firefox (whups). We are not very good as consumers at ensuring that.
hellofunk 6y ago
> I know that the devices are pretty and feel nice and maybe your friends all have one and you want to signal that you’re one of the crowd, but it’s not worth it. This is when the author lost me. That’s not why I or many others own Apple devices.
chappi42 6y ago
Google has not a similar model as Apple, alternative stores are possible. These rotten apple gangsters need to be stopped (by legislation). A huge fine (50 billions) is in order! It's not only about the 30 % extortion fee but also e.g. Phone Story. A member of a platform duopoly should be disallowed to uniquely control the single access point.
- jonny_eh 6y ago
  > Google has not a similar model as Apple, alternative stores are possible. They also allow custom payment methods within apps distributed via Google Play. See Apple Music on Android.
nisten 6y ago
30% is extemely steep and I think if it was 15% hardly anyone would complain. This is just my opinion, but a 30% tax is there because they provide something that the competition doesn't. And that is automated security updates by default for at least 5 years and user friendly app permission management where I really can trust my settings to provide me privacy by default. You will not get that from Google, they barely support their own devices for more than 3 years, I still have no idea if advertisers are allowed to read my gmail or not. I remember recently a friend getting an old ipad mini with a nice screen but poor cpu specs, 1gb ram. And guess what, it ran fine, it's getting security and feature updates the same day as every other apple device. TouchID worked, everything actually just worked I can trust that thing my bank account. And recently I found my old Nexus 7 with amazing specs, quad core , 4gb ram, 1920:1200 screen and now I have to do bootloader & operating system surgery just to get the thing to work. Everytime I've heard of someone get their bank account hacked it usually has started with a text sent to an out of date android phone. For that reason alone I can't recommend a non-technical person to use android unless they understand security or it's on a brand new Pixel device. If I'm building and deploying software and I want to have the piece of mind that all my users are running it on a secure platform that at least tries to respect their privacy my best choice is an iOS device and for that Apple wants a 3rd of my revenue.
flaxton 6y ago
I love it when someone tries to tell me what I should like or do. I don’t care if you like Apple or not. I happen to like them, not everything of course, but overall yes. And you’re advocating limiting their success? They, like all of us, can succeed or fail in America. They are successful because people like their products and software. Duh. Jealousy does not suit you very well. Don’t get me wrong, I like Android and Linux too, I’m an expert on Linux myself. But there’s a reason I use an iPhone, iPad Pro and MacBook Pro. It’s called convenience and productivity. And I like it! Who basically invented the App Store? And now you don’t like that they make money on it? Your whole article just strikes me as sour grapes.
annoyingnoob 6y ago
As if Google/Android or any other phone is different/better...
RandomBacon 6y ago
This post was just removed from HN's front page.
Razengan 6y ago
Brace yourself; it’s the yearly wave of Apple-negging just before every WWDC.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
type0 6y ago
> Let’s say we tear down Apple through legal means–we send them the message that because they’re so successful they no longer have a right to dictate their own terms around what apps they allow on their devices ... Their devices? So you can only rent your iPhone?

316 points by Rudism 6y ago

ig1 6y ago

Fundamentally it's hard to see how the current situation is any different from the situation in which anti-trust regulators moved against Nintendo and Sega in the mid-90s. In both cases you have a duopoly which essentially controlled the market and used access to the platform to force fees and conditions onto developers using their gatekeeping abilities.

starbugs 6y ago
One difference that comes to mind relatively quickly is that you didn't need a gaming console to live in practice. Try being part of today's society without a smartphone running either Apple or Google software. Apple's goal to shove off 30% of subscription fees, if successful, most likely would lead to more expensive subscription fees for end users. I wonder whether that's finally a case that has a chance to stand in court w.r.t. anti-trust laws. (Driving up end user prices through anti-competitive behavior.)

CameronNemo 6y ago

Which in this context probably means don't operate your business on the assumption that you can have an application in the Apple app store.

CydeWeys 6y ago

"Whining" is an overly prejudicial word choice for this title. These are legitimate issues people have with what Apple is doing, not mere whining. This echoes the "if you don't like it so much then just leave instead of speaking up" dismissal that is so commonly used as a lampshade for suppressing dissent. Not sure if that's the intent here but that's what it comes off as. And this point from the article needs to be strongly rebutted: > I don’t know, it seems silly to me to cry about monopolies. The solution is obvious. Stop making apps for iOS. Sure, you’re going to take a huge hit without access to those consumers [...] This guy doesn't understand what monopolies are and how they work. The whole point is that there are no other alternatives, so you literally cannot "just stop using them". "Just stop patronizing the monopoly" is not a strategy that has ever been successful. The monopoly needs to be broken up.

Lammy 6y ago
The author changing "Hey" to "Yo" was also a poor choice considering: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yo_(app) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yo_(app)
- cryptoz 6y ago
  I thought this was actually about Yo again! Had me tricked out they were relevant again.
- rob74 6y ago
  Maybe he should have used "Let's go" instead...
- ilrwbwrkhv 6y ago
  It's fine, you did understand it was Hey didn't you?
  - Lammy 6y ago
    I understand it today with the knowledge of current events fresh in my mind, but it won't age well.
izzydata 6y ago
I'd imagine significant changes in the market is the best way to get Apple to do anything. If people keep buying and using all their products then they will keep doing what their doing.
lordleft 6y ago
Agreed. There's a false dichotomy here. You can use a product, and as a stakeholder demand change. Refraining from using the product entirely is one way to achieve that, but it's not the only way. Many products evolve because of user-feedback.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  > Many products evolve because of user-feedback. And regulation. See GDPR and CCPA.

aphroz 6y ago

I have never used them, but I guess I am still allowed to complain about how their action impacts my life.

heavyset_go 6y ago

No, I'll do both.

mixedCase 6y ago
And that's great if you just want to vent. Just don't expect change.
- CydeWeys 6y ago
  There's a long history of consumer activism successfully forcing companies to change. We have power. Hell, we've even toppled government regimes this way (looking at you South Africa).
- Androider 6y ago
  Both the EU and the US are already looking into Apple. Here's the CTO of the Hey app and the chairman of the US Antitrust Subcommittee discussing this very case yesterday: https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/18/21295778/apple-app-store-hey-email-fees-policies-antitrust-wwdc-2020 https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/18/21295778/apple-app-store-... These "nothing's going to change, why even try" attitudes are so lazy. Absolutely things can change, but surely not if we don't try. Microsoft was massively impacted by the antitrust action against them, every decision they made since then has been run through the lens of that verdict (I know lots of people inside MS) and it fundamentally changed their culture and reduced their stranglehold on the industry.

hirundo 6y ago

I can't stop. I've been buying computers and peripherals and gizmos since 1974. I have a house full of them. I code for food. But I've yet to buy my first Apple product or service. Yes, it's mostly because I'm cheap. But it's also because I avoid walled gardens. I feel pretty good about that now. Climb on out, y'all, the weather's fine out here in the jungle.

fermienrico 6y ago
Am I the only one who loves Apple products? I love MacOS. I love iOS. I love all things Apple. Customer service is totally top notch. Physical quality is excellent, of course I have my wishes and pet peeves (don’t like cold aluminum, stupid touchbar, keyboard!). I’m willing to pay even double the cost of other cheaply made products from Asus, Acer, Samsung, etc. Not to mention the whole ecosystem thing and I trust Apple with my data - more than Google and I can’t even think about Microsoft (windows is a billboard of ads). If China had a competitor to Apple for OS/hardware (not talking about Foxconn, that’s a ODM), they would need to literally convert to democracy before they can even get in the playing field. They’re not even in the same league, not even the same sport right now. Initially, I was apathetic. Then I liked Apple products. Then I started loving them. They’re arrogant, they care about you, they made mistakes, they charge a lot of premium - I love them. They must have done something right to win me?
- ryneandal 6y ago
  I'm with you entirely. I love what they're doing with hardware. I am fascinated with their SoC/SiPs. My kids are wildly successful with iOS/MacOS UIs in comparison to the competiton (especially ChromeOS, good lord is that a usability nightmare), and I think this speaks volumes about the quality of their ui/ux investment.
  - eyerony 6y ago
    > especially ChromeOS, good lord is that a usability nightmare My dad recently got one of these to have something simpler since all he really needs is a web browser, and damn, you aren't kidding. Like, the OS isn't even that "big" here, guys, how is it so thoroughly mediocre? The accessibility settings in particular are like something from the 90s, after being used to what modern iOS and macOS offer. Felt like a half-assed afterthought. Didn't work very well. Considering much of the target market for it is old people and kids, that's incredibly inconsiderate. Oh and then of course the settings screen itself was hard to navigate and poorly organized, but that much I expected (google is weirdly bad at settings screens across basically all their products, IME)

kennywinker 6y ago

So author would have us abandon a duopoly, and give google a monopoly? That should work out well. Anybody remember microsoft in the 90s?

viburnum 6y ago

Anti-trust problems can't be solved by individual consumer choices.

Bud 6y ago
Especially when there is no legitimate anti-trust issue to begin with.
- kennywinker 6y ago
  In your opinion. In my opinion, apple is using its monopoly (or duopoly) power to force companies like hey into business relationships they would not enter into otherwise. Which represents an abuse of their position.

bjarneh 6y ago

Not all can freely choose platforms. Clearly a fully free one would be ideal, but unless you do web development, who has that kind of luxury?

cmsj 6y ago

> The solution is obvious. Stop making apps for iOS. Sure, you’re going to take a huge hit without access to those consumers The solution is obvious. Sabotage your own business. Sure, you're going to go out of business without any customers.

zepto 6y ago
But that’s the whole point of having principles. It costs something to uphold them, which you deem worthwhile to pay. There are plenty of other ways to make money in software without needing to do business with companies you deem unethical.
- starbugs 6y ago
  What serious business, be it B2C or B2B, in today's software world, doesn't require a mobile app on either iOS and Android or a desktop app on Chrome/Windows/macOS?
  - zepto 6y ago
    Are you saying all three of Microsoft, Google, and Apple are unethical?
    - viklove 6y ago
      Unequivocally yes, MS, Google, and Apple are all deeply unethical. This is proven in their business practices as well as their manufacturing practices. The problem is we live in a society that values money over all else, including human suffering and fair access to markets.
      - jpttsn 6y ago
        It must be even easier to stop working with these unethical companies if you don’t value money that much.
enriquto 6y ago

cinquemb 6y ago

Or root, mod, buy on secondary markets and avoid updates, can't expect them to not piss the pool if you let em…

jhloa2 6y ago

"I know that the devices are pretty and feel nice and maybe your friends all have one and you want to signal that you’re one of the crowd, but it’s not worth it." That's quite an over simplification of the appeal of an iPhone and comes off as him whining about whiners. I'd like to switch back to a flip phone from a privacy perspective, but there's a few conveniences that would be hard to go without. I refuse to buy any more Android phones as I've only had issue after issue with software and hardware, and Apple seems like the lesser of two evils. It feels like we're stuck in an American political party system where our only reasonable options are to choose between two companies that only have their own best interests in mind.

denni9th 6y ago
The issue is app stores. Most app developers/companies won't deploy to any stores other than Google's and Apple's, so when it comes to choosing a device that can run most apps its IPhone or Android. A solution here is to introduce a standard mobile app format, with standard APIs to interact with the OS. Then app developers write one app that can run on any supported device. But good luck getting the duopoly to agree to that.
- thephyber 6y ago
  > A solution here is to introduce a standard mobile app format, with standard APIs to interact with the OS. I would argue that's exactly what Android is. It's a mobile OS with a mobile app ecosystem of APIs. But the fact that no government forced all smartphones to use it means it didn't and likely won't happen. Also, governments don't seem to move at the speed of iOS/Android features, so taking that hypothetical path would have likely meant all mobile phone features slowed a lot. > The issue is app stores. Another solution is for governments to enforce reasonable access to all mobile app companies and to make sure the purchases and data are portable to all similar devices (say all smartphones or all game consoles). It's not that hard to make the coupling of the app binary to the device tight but the license to use the software portable.

hkarthik 6y ago

If you don’t like how Apple does business, stop using their products. If you don’t like how Google does business, stop using their products. If you don’t like how either one does business, stop using technology all together. I am being facetious, but mainly to illustrate the point that we now have a series of entrenched monopolies in the tech world so “stop using X” isn’t a realistic solution.

enriquto 6y ago
On the other hand, for us "tech people" it is actually easier to stop using Google and Apple and serve as example for others. Pushing for anti-monopoly legislation needs not be the only thing that we do to solve that problem. Moreover, for people who are not citizens of the USA (the large majority of the people!), there's no other clear course of action.
- FakeRemore 6y ago
  > On the other hand, for us "tech people" it is actually easier to stop using Google and Apple and serve as example for others. Pushing for anti-monopoly legislation needs not be the only thing that we do to solve that problem. Are you suggesting people stop using smartphones altogether?
  - pathseeker 6y ago
    Depends on if you consider running a phone with Google services removed "supporting Google".
  - Brakenshire 6y ago
    There are services that operate on Android with open source implementations of the Google proprietary services which have been designed for lock-in. https://e.foundation https://e.foundation packages up the work from Lineage and MicroG and sells phones with the software preinstalled.
  - enriquto 6y ago
    > Are you suggesting people stop using smartphones altogether? I do not have a smartphone and my life is alright, but I was not suggesting that. You can certainly have a smartphone that is not controlled by neither Google nor Apple. For example, by installing an OS like LineageOS, or even some "freer" stuff that is out there.

deleted 6y ago

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recursivedoubts 6y ago

I recently bought a system76 lemur pro after being a long time macbook user: https://system76.com/laptops/lemur https://system76.com/laptops/lemur I will not claim that there are no trade offs, but I find it a very productive machine, and very light weight. I use an external monitor and keyboard, plugged in to a usb-c hub, and it works well. I am hoping that the mudita pure can replace my iphone: https://mudita.com/products/pure/ https://mudita.com/products/pure/ I do wish someone would do a not-dumb-but-not-too-smart e-ink phone with basic maps and a physical keyboard, but I recognize that I am likely a market of one for that product.

u6eexrtxjjxjexr 6y ago
Not e-ink, but Nokia 800 does have Google Maps.
- RandomBacon 6y ago
  How about OpenStreetMap? If I'm ditching Android to get away from Google, I'd rather not use Google Maps. However I do concede that only having an run some of the time is better than an bad OS running all the time.
komali2 6y ago
Oh wow 2.2lbs, this is the first time I've seen an actual competitor to the Thinkpad x1 carbon.

mperham 6y ago

This strikes me as one step removed from that meme: "I see you complain about modern farming practices and yet still eat. Interesting..."

DiabloD3 6y ago

"I'm going to make one of those unpopular opinions, but alas, it must be said: It is far easier to just drop Apple support entirely." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23286883 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23286883 (Its becoming more popular! Yaaaaaay!)

lazyjones 6y ago

> Stop buying iPhones. Seriously. They’re overpriced and locked-down and controlled by Apple in infuriating ways that hurt you, even if Apple has succeeded in keeping you ignorant of that fact. I'll take your word for it... not! iPhones are fine, everyone who has used both current Android and iOS devices can see that. It's not hurting me that "Hey" has to pay 30% for their subscriptions. Hotels, restaurants and other companies have to pay similar rates to their respective dominating "gatekeepers" as well. For the consumer it doesn't matter. For someone like "Hey" the way to go is to pay up now and if they are successful, they might be able to negotiate better terms later.

tambourine_man 6y ago

Not like there’s much of a choice. Windows… well, offends my sensibilities and Linux doesn’t run Adobe suite.

duxup 6y ago

The conclusion sort of "undoes" the title... and I kinda hate articles like that. I just read a bunch of stuff and we get to. "Well what you just read doesn't work, maybe something else, bye..."

jonny_eh 6y ago

> The Solution for Consumers > Stop buying iPhones There's the problem with this argument. Consumers are suffering, but don't realize it. The lack of competition, and the increased cost to developers, are depriving consumers of innovative products like Hey, but they don't know it. You can't expect consumer to know when they buy a phone, that it will cause a future company to fail to launch an innovative new product. It's this very reason why we have anti-trust laws.

nemothekid 6y ago
Please. You can argue it's bad for developers, but saying it's bad for consumers is unsubstantiated and just an appeal to emotion. Whether or nor other not the cut is fair, Apple has done an amazing job running the app store - as well as the broader platform in delivering a platform used by millions that is both free from malware and spyware.
- jonny_eh 6y ago
  > Apple has done an amazing job running the app store It can be true that they've run a great app store, but also true that some aspects of it are bad for developers and consumers.
jpttsn 6y ago
>Will cause to fail Is what seems so entitled about this thing. If your company/innovation relies on free access, but in reality that access costs 30%, your idea is not solid. Suppose there’s no iPhone. No customers bought it. They all want to run arbitrary software. In this world, is Hey a good idea? If that’s not the world you live in, should you invest in Hey pretending it’s another world?

jpswade 6y ago

> an email service I will be calling Yo in this article Why?

BMorearty 6y ago

Disclaimer: I only read the subject line and the first paragraph. Years ago, when Internet Explorer had market dominance, I was working on a website and I wanted to use a feature that IE didn’t support yet. I asked a question on a forum about how to do it in IE. One of the replies was "just stop using IE." Dude. It's not for me. It's for my customers.

unreal37 6y ago
How quickly people forget history.
RandomBacon 6y ago
Put up a banner that says IE is not supported, download one of these browsers instead. If you say "No" because it will drive away your customers, then it absolutely is for you. It sounds like you were putting profits before principles.
- jonny_eh 6y ago
  And in the case of iOS, you put a banner on a website saying "Buy a similar $1K Android instead"?
  - RandomBacon 6y ago
    A $100 Android can run a modern browser.
    - jonny_eh 6y ago
      So tell a user of an iPhone 11 Pro Max to get a $100 Android phone to use Hey?
      - RandomBacon 6y ago
        If they want to use an Android-only app. Just like I would have to buy a $400 iPhone if I want to use an iOS-only app.

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chooseaname 6y ago

Who is this person and why do they feel they're an authority?

Bud 6y ago

Seems to me there is a lot of heat and very little light flying around on the entire App Store issue. A lot of those "whining" the loudest——although let's call it legitimate debate instead of whining——don't seem to be fully grasping all the benefits of a walled ecosystem along with the drawbacks. I don't think debating this issue gets us very far unless we're intellectually honest with each other about all the benefits as well as the drawbacks.

pknerd 6y ago

Pardon, but it is actually the author who is whining here. DHH has raised some very valid points, especially when many businesses rely on Apple Store. There is nothing wrong to talk about it, especially when Apple itself provides a "web option" instead of IAP to avoid X% of cuts.

not2b 6y ago

No, they haven't earned the right to exploit their monopoly this way. It's a monopoly because the only way to get an app onto an iPhone (at least, without rooting the device) is via the app store. The writer thinks that it is perfectly appropriate for Apple to steal from the poor and not from the rich, exploiting their power to score every dollar they can get. But antitrust law exists for a reason, and though the current US administration isn't very interested in enforcing it, the EU and Japan are less likely to let Apple continue to get away with their practices.

pjmlp 6y ago
Except what counts is what law defines as monopoly, and the fact that Android owns the European market, makes it even less relevant.

jacknews 6y ago

Adam Smith would disagree I think. Apple have a quasi monopoly and are imposing an 'absurd tax' on any other business operating in their fiefdom.

deleted 6y ago

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gdsdfe 6y ago

so the solution to Apple's (or google's) behaviour is to stop using their stores? basically stop having a business altogether?

voodooranger 6y ago

I will continue to use Apple but I pulled both of my apps from their app store years ago due to maltreatment. I don’t use their app store as a consumer either. IMO it’s a wasteland. Unpopular opinion but I also think it should be completely up to them to set their revenue share. Let their app store wither away as developers create platform-independent web applications instead.

kilo_bravo_3 6y ago

Nooooo!!!! I am sustained by Apple hatred. It is an essential part of my balanced diet. Every time someone complains about how expensive Apple is I grow a centimeter and every time someone bitches about their App Store policies I gain a month of lifespan. I am now 40km tall and will live for 50,000 years but ultimately a lack of whining about Apple would see me wither away and die.

ta23576025 6y ago
This is such a funny comment in a thread with so much divisiveness. Apple's position sucks for those who rely on their customers (and yes, it is THEIR customers) for a living. No matter how much we complain, they developed their ecosystem.
stOneskull 6y ago
when those old folks warned of worshipping false idols, i wonder if they could've imagined these big shiny apples and Gs

sergioisidoro 6y ago

I wouldn't say "stop using" but in a lot of businesses iOS seems be always be launched first with Android as an after-though. I think this backslash is partially about Apple falling from its pedestal and favouritism.

Mugwort 6y ago

Isn't this the tipping point when a company crosses the line, becomes a monopoly, restricts consumer choices, and suffocates competition by leveraging the entire playing field? We've been through that before. Sad to see Apple of all companies turn evil.

yingw787 6y ago

I really like the iPhone. Maybe not the full Apple ecosystem so much (everything else I own is Linux), but that's only because I think Linux is the best fit for me. iPhone is the same way, and Apple's business practices don't change my fit with my phone, no matter how disappointing they may be. I think that's why many of us use Apple. My happy place would be something like "Heroku for mobile", where you can jswrap a React.js app into an HTMLView or something like that, and do 'git push ios master'. Notifications API, localStorage API, and maybe authentication / session persistence API are all I really care about natively (like Firebase); React Native is too heavy. Add in a TestFlight "permanent beta" invite, or the ability to build the app from a remote mac (https://www.macincloud.com/ https://www.macincloud.com/) with a lambda and transfer it to my phone (...somehow), and I'll just use the app store for things I don't make myself (which hopefully should be less and less).

u6eexrtxjjxjexr 6y ago
Isn't that what a PWA is? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_web_application https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_web_application
- yingw787 6y ago
  PWAs are going in that direction, but they don't have access to native storage, notifications, and other stuff. They're still mostly webapps, which is great for portability but not great for mobile UI/UX. I want the "native-ness" of React Native (or really, true native) combined with the flexibility of a webapp. Reduce mobile down to another build target, but still not give up access to native APIs.

rydre 6y ago

Is this satire?

deleted 6y ago

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unreal37 6y ago

"It seems silly to me to cry about monopolies." Oh, wait. So let's go back in time. When Microsoft was sued and forced to allow other browsers onto Windows. IE was the default and was free. Microsoft forced OEMs to pay for Windows for every computer they made, whether or not they installed Windows on it. Effectively killing out other operating systems. If you don't believe in monopolies... if the solution was "stop buying computers that come pre-installed with Windows"... Or is it that you don't believe Apple is a monopoly but you're still happy Microsoft was forced to allow other browsers to be the default in Windows?

tracerbulletx 6y ago

Apple, Google, Amazon, Facebook, MS in the 90s? Which one isn't doing things people consider to be absolutely awful in some way or another.So given that, I stop buying iPhones, and do what buy an android phone? I have not really improved the moral calculus of the world. What we should do is insist on moral behavior from companies across the board, equally and fairly applied to all organizations big and small. If someone is doing something wrong, it's wrong and it's ok to call it out.

nvr219 6y ago

My job is to fix other people's technology / computer problems. When I'm not working I want to use a smartphone that does what I need, behaves as expected every time, and respects my privacy concerns. I want to spend as little time as possible configuring, fixing, or troubleshooting my phone. The iPhone is the closest thing to what I want. It's not 100% but it's better than any other smartphone I've come across at that price point ($400 for iPhone SE).

dustingetz 6y ago

Can't use Apple, can't use Google ... can't have a cell phone. Who needs that?

Androider 6y ago

If you make something like say, oh an email client, excluding the 1.5 BILLION people on the iOS platform is not just a handicap, it makes your entire business non-viable. So now Apple is the gatekeeper of new businesses and services. Fortune 500's and small one man shops alike have been terrified to speak up against Apple, because Apple has the ability to deliver a death-sentence by kicking you out of their store on a whim or simply because an app reviewer takes a personal interest in you. I think what the Basecamp folks want is entirely reasonable, and Apple's behavior is entirely anti-competitive: Basecamp doesn't care to be in the app store, nor do they want to benefit from the app store discovery and other services for free. What they want is the OPTION to have a link on their web page, that when clicked, prompts the user to install the notarized/signed/whatever application. Basically you'd just have the "double click the power button twice to install" card pop-up immediately, bypassing the entire store. Do that, and Apple can charge whatever they want in the store. Suggestions that this somehow subverts the quality of the platform or the experience is entirely bullshit, Basecamp pays their developer fees and notarizes their apps on Mac, there's zero reason this wouldn't work on iOS except Apple's greed and anti-competitive behavior, and let's not forget that sweet, sweet 30% cut of every single business and service under the sun.

ntsplnkv2 6y ago
This is simply not true. There are more on the android platform, and therefore enough for viability. The reality is people want all the benefits of the iOS world without paying anything for it.
- learc83 6y ago
  >There are more on the android platform, and therefore enough for viability. Is that true for customers who are interested in a high end email service that costs $100 a year? I'd wager that the vast majority of people in that segment are on iPhones.
  - ntsplnkv2 6y ago
    Honestly, I don't think that segment really exists. The ones that would search that out will just as likely be on android as iPhone. If 33% of such an app is enough to cause this much angst, it makes me think it just isn't that popular.

tilolebo 6y ago

"Now let’s say they decide to offer a new service that allows content providers to reach Yo’s subscribers–like a newsletter or something." I stopped reading after this and came here to say that we all know Hey would NEVER do that. This is exactly the kind of shit they fight against. So it's not just hypocrisy from their side, they're fighting for an idea. Of course the PR also can't hurt, but it's not like they planned it.

yusyusyus 6y ago

How about we regulate them instead? We can force them to change using the power of the state.

whatever1 6y ago

We need the same solution as the one Microsoft implemented in Windows N. Once you set-up your new phone (android, iOS whatever), you get to select your default app store. Different stores will have different cost / curation structures, but it will be the user’s decision to make. The OS manufacturer can still require that all of the apps need to be digitally signed to allow them to be installed, regardless of the store, to guarantee system safety. Mobile App stores in 2020 are what browsers were to Windows in 90’s.

buo 6y ago

As an alternative solution that doesn't depend on defining what a monopoly is, or how to boycott a large brand, how about forcing companies to apply the same terms to everybody? I think at least part of the core of the problem is that Apple applies their subscription requirements differently depending on who owns the app. That is what I think needs to stop. If Yo has to do it one way, then Google, Microsoft, Netflix and Spotify should have to do it the same way too.

cardenasrjl 6y ago

Apple :D, for long time you've been doing whatever you want.

Despegar 6y ago

I mean lets be honest. Developers actually like the iPhone as a development platform. They like how much money they make from it. They like the products themselves. They just don't want to pay the Apple commission or be restricted in any way by their rules. Unfortunately those things are tied at the hip. The very rules and product decisions about the platform is what made it the popular and lucrative market it is in the first place.

jcstauffer 6y ago

Unpopular opinion: the 30% that Apple charges includes customer acquisition cost. As a thought experiment, if Hey adds In-App Purchase for subscriptions, but everyone who downloads the app has first signed up for their service due to their marketing methods (an increasing likelihood considering this controversy), then nobody will use the In App Purchase, and Hey will send $0.00 to Apple. If someone discovers the App in the App Store due to an organic search for Email clients, then they are likely to sign up via In App Purchase, and Hey pays Apple an affiliate fee of 30% of first year revenue, and 15% of lifetime revenue after that. This is a customer that Hey would not have had if not for the App Store, so getting 75-80% of lifetime value seems better than not acquiring the customer in the first place. I realize it's not entirely as clean as that, but cast in that way, the amounts seem merely expensive, and not egregious. (not to defend any of Apple's behavior - particularly the most recent letter sent).

starbugs 6y ago
Try making your app appear in search results via organic store searches. Good luck. In my experience, you will likely either pay for search results or do marketing on your own using other channels. Both are paid and Apple doesn't do anything for it. There's really no good case for taking 30% as long as there's no real marketing benefit from the App Store.
beowulfey 6y ago
I 100% agree. I think if Apple was consistent across all apps (i.e. they allow users to subscribe outside of their ecosystem with no restriction, but only charged 30% if purchased through ecosystem) nobody would be complaining about the 30% at all. The major issue is that a smaller app is being penalized for not having the clout that someone like Netflix has and being able to bypass the rule.
ryanar 6y ago
Hey is arguing that they want the choice to unlist from the app store entirely so their client would never surface in organic search results, and have no IAP link. That way the only audience they gain are from people they themselves marketed to and purchased a subscription on the web. But it's unfair to Apple! They get 0.00 for this! Bullshit. Every Apple customer who wants to use HEY gets a great mobile experience to encourage them to keep buying Apple products. If enough services like Dropbox, Netflix, Spotify, were not available on iPhone, the consumer might purchase the Android phone on their next upgrade, or the company might switch their fleet to Android devices that actually support their business software. Basecamp / Hey is providing value to Apple's products by enriching their ecosystem. They should have the choice if they want to pay a 30% cut for organic search traffic in Apple's App Store.

pphysch 6y ago

This debacle is peak popcorn. "HN Darling Reinvents Email Except Really Expensive Without SMTP Support And Asserts That Apple Is Being A Meanie For Enforcing Their Revenue Model" Yet no one is going to divest from Apple because profit/weird consumer ideology. Also not precluding the possibility that it's all (or mostly) a big marketing act from what is clearly a marketing-first product (Hey).

bzb3 6y ago
Wow, Hey doesn't have SMTP support? That's ridiculous.
- freehunter 6y ago
  Well, Hey isn't trying to be yet another email service. The idea is that SMTP does not support the kind of messaging that Hey is built around.

noisy_boy 6y ago

I have seen mainly three groups of people who continue to use Apple products. Those who want their phones, computers etc to just work together and don't want to spend time on this. Then there are those who want to get out of the walled garden but there is too much lock-in to bother spending time on it because they have other things to do. And finally those who think Apple products are aspirational/status symbol. So when it comes to switching from Apple, the first group doesn't need to, the second can't afford to and the third doesn't want to. Nothing much we can do about it.

smt88 6y ago

Users can stop using Apple with minimal consequences. Many businesses can't. Apple puts tolls around users, and people think the pricing model is unfair. That's what this uproar is about. It has nothing to do with consumers beyond the fact that consumers see how unfair the pricing model is.

specialist 6y ago

What's the monopolistic case against Apple? Is Apple anticompetitive? Here's my grievances, but I don't know if any aspects are actually monopolistic. Are they competing against their own partners? Their stock apps have remained vanilla enough that there seems to be enough oxygen for alternatives for premium and power users. They've definitely done monopsony. Business strategy wise, they've been wicked clever. It's always made me uncomfortable. And I'm pretty grumpy their control of the supply chain doesn't permit third party repairs. I get that they're pulling out all the stops combatting counterfeiters and fraud, which is easily pro-consumer, but there's got to be a balance. I've always felt their 30% cut from App Store is excessive, unfair. But I don't know what a reasonable cut would be. Cost of doing business plus reasonable margin? Pay to play schemes, like search ads and paid placement, are complete bullshit. Aka payola. But is that monopolistic? All the "marketplaces" need the rule of law. Transparency, accountability, fair and impartial courts, appeals processes. This applies to apps, content, personas. No one entity can be allowed be legislator, police, judge, jury, and executioner. This is the biggest apparent conflict of interest, anti-competitive, anti-consumer, anti-democratic behavior of all these "marketplace" hosts, Apple included. I'm still pissed off about the wage fixing. Sharing the bounty more fairly, broadly would diffuse a lot of the festering resentment.

wisemanwillhear 6y ago

> The idea that they have a “monopoly” seems patently ridiculous to me. A monopoly over what? Their own brand of computing devices that they are the sole manufacturers of? Operating systems for which they are the sole developers and maintainers? I'm not sure where I fall on this, but I feel this is less direct than some people make it sound. I can also see the argument that the iOS phone has become it's own market segment. It might be a bit of stretch to make this comparison, but we don't just a have a market segment for electronic communication devices, we break that down further. Why can't the smart phone market be broken down further as well?

drocer88 6y ago

Serious question: Is there a non Google app store/Apple app store based smart phone that gives user control, like on a Linux box? Duopoly , walled gardens, spying is getting annoying. I would like to stop using them.

dr-detroit 6y ago

I get by fine without an iwatch etc. I live as a second class citizen but the tradeoff is fine in my book.

tobyhinloopen 6y ago

Oh right like Android/Google is better

vvectorr 6y ago

Incredible cacophony of whinging cranks. On the gradient of human needs this falls to about the lowest rung. The word 'monopoly' thrown around here has been made vague enough to be weaponized -- when in reality the ingredient to an actual monopoly is that the buyer has no viable alternative in the marketplace... which you all know otherwise. Think about this critically: commodities in general are marked up at 30%. The 'mom and pop' liquor store down your street sells bottles at least that. Is it a monopoly because they're the only store in a ten block radius? Don't conflate your laziness and desire for the highest status-signalling pocket computer for lack of actual marketplace choice. The good folks at Basecamp, or really anyone here complaining, who owns an iPhone, are hypocrites in self denial. Among the various morally-questionable actions Apple does for growth, this isn't some atrocity. Don't @me

komali2 6y ago

> Let’s say we tear down Apple through legal means–we send them the message that because they’re so successful they no longer have a right to dictate their own terms around what apps they allow on their devices and how much money they can charge developers to have access to their platform. Just think of all the ways that precedent could be abused against other companies. Ok, how about we instead tear down this idea that it's legally OK for a company to sell you a computer, and then prevent you from installing whatever software you want on it? Doesn't sound like we have any bad precedents then! And, apple can keep their app store if they want, and pitch it as a curated, safe walled garden.

munro 6y ago

Perhaps I’m wrong, but I imagine if I wanted to stop using Google, and created my own web based spreadsheet software, or video conferencing software, that I would face a legal battle with these big tech companies if it did end up becoming successful. Searching for spreadsheet patents returns a lot of really banal concepts [1]. Maybe they wouldn’t hold up in court, but having been served before, it’s a very terrifying experience. Or, if you create a successful competing product, you’ll probably just get bought out (whatsapp, keybase, instagram). [1] https://patents.google.com/patent/US8332878B2/en?q=Spreadsheet+google&oq=Spreadsheet+google https://patents.google.com/patent/US8332878B2/en?q=Spreadshe...

truculent 6y ago

Quit whining about the internet and just stop using it.

ocdtrekkie 6y ago

The article completely ignores that the only way most consumers can not buy an iPhone is to buy an Android, which is as bad or worse, depending on what particular concerns you have. (Apple's got a slightly stronger walled garden, Google has far worse privacy and security. At the end of the day, their app store models are the same.)

tayistay 6y ago

If you look at the selection of apps on the Mac App Store, where developers aren't forced to use the store, it's pretty easy to see that their 30% generally outweighs the usefulness of the service. So, semantic discussions of monopoly aside, Apple is charging a rent. In general, we should be against rent-seeking in technology.

ogre_codes 6y ago

Everything is a trade-off. I use iOS because I want a smartphone and I'd prefer Apple's restrictions to Google's data-gathering. I'd like to see iOS be better and I'd like to see Apple's App Store policies improved. If I choose to use Apple products because I find the trade-offs inherent in using iOS/ MacOS, I don't lose the right to expect better of them and want those products to improve.

lcnmrn 6y ago
By not using Android you're missing a lot of good free apps that don't display ads.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  > By not using Android you're missing a lot of good free apps that don't display ads. My post wasn't meant to push one perspective or another, merely to point out that wanting your platform to be better doesn't mean you want to switch. If I was on Android, I would complain a lot about Google's advertising policies, then someone would say "Quit whining about Google and just stop using them".

wallstprog 6y ago

It's not that simple -- as Churchill said about democracy: "It's the worst form of government ever invented -- except for all the other ones". I switched to Mac almost 10 years ago, and I'm basically pretty happy with it. So when it looks like Apple is planning to screw it up, I get upset -- I don't want to switch again (it was a huge PITA), and there's nothing out there even remotely close.

deegles 6y ago

If you don't like Amazon, good luck not using anything that touches AWS.

xenonite 6y ago
yes, even Apple uses AWS for some of their services.

rdiddly 6y ago

...Apple stepped in and essentially said "Nah, fuck that, you either implement in-app subscriptions in your app and give us our 30% or you can go suck an egg"... For the record they actually said https://twitter.com/dhh/status/1272976901762478080/photo/1 https://twitter.com/dhh/status/1272976901762478080/photo/1 ...but thanks for translating it into mid-oughts hip-hopper mixed with 1940s farmer/GI/zoot-suiter!

rdiddly 6y ago
No, a paraphrase bears a burden of being better than the original in some way, otherwise just link to the original. Brevity is usually the default improvement being sought, but ideally there would also be honesty, or maybe even, dare we hope, eloquence - perhaps the use of some kind of metaphor or other dimension that makes clear the meaning of the original in a way that's better than the original itself. Translating into young-person conformist speech patterns like "nah" and "fuck that" doesn't count, because everybody already understands Apple's non-hip way of saying it. And then it turns suddenly from hip and nowish, to talking about sucking eggs, which hasn't been uttered since everybody's grandparents gave up poultry farming and moved to the city after the war. That's the clue that it's a disingenuous characterization of the original, which tends to be the case almost every time anyone says "So basically you're saying..." on the internet. Maybe this was an attempt at satire and I just got whooshed? On the plus side the paraphrase did achieve brevity, and clarity (at least when compared to Apple's sugarcoating and contortion).

crazygringo 6y ago

Wow, this is a long-winded semi-rant that goes through a lot of contradictory points. Summing up, it seems to take two opposite sides, the first aligned with the title: 1) Don't take legal action against Apple because "think of all the ways that precedent could be abused against other companies" and "it seems silly to me to cry about monopolies", so "The solution is obvious. Stop making apps for iOS" because if you "can’t survive without the ability to suckle at Apple’s teat then you’ve made bad decisions" and "Stop buying iPhones" and "Don’t buy Macs while you’re at it" ...but the second totally opposed to it: 2) "In reality, I know none of these solutions are actually going to come to fruition", "Maybe the ultimate solution is an anti-trust legal one", and "My hopes for such legal action ever succeeding are not particularly high." But as in most cases, reality isn't that black and white. The author is ultimately correct in saying "boycott Apple" is simply not viable, as it should be -- it would be like taking a sledgehammer to level a nail. Unfortunately, the author is being incredibly condescending and unrealistic that a business shouldn't depend on the iOS market, which is something like 2/3 of all mobile app store revenue. But government intervention here doesn't mean a slippery slope -- that's a common but totally unfounded fallacy. Economists are well acquainted with all the different ways markets can fail, and how targeted governmental remedies are required for healthy market competition to function. Identifying that Apple is abusing its market position in one area to stifle competition in another is easy to show, if we write appropriate legislation to define it (applying to Amazon etc. as well). The only question is what remedy best serves consumers: whether to treat this like a monopoly situation that gets broken up (force Apple to allow apps and app stores that bypass Apple's walled garden) or regulated like public utilities (the security and trustworthiness of the App Store is valuable, so set a yearly profit limit of e.g. 12% to that segment of the company).

lalos 6y ago

What I find interesting is that developers usually complain about the one time app purchase, saying that this doesn't incentivize big updates and the way around it is to use in-app purchases. Some even propose an update app fee. Also, developers complain that Apple is squeezing a fee from every transaction. Which seems like the same problem, Apple wants that constant stream of revenue just like developers want that constant stream of revenue to incentivize updates. Anybody else notices this symmetry? On a side note, this could be fixed with 1) Unpopular apps don't pay a fee until they reach a certain amount of downloads. This promotes apps created by devs just starting out. 2) Fees only apply until an upper limit is met which corresponds to the total cost they generate. i.e. Every year the count resets, the first 50k downloads have 30% fee, the next 100k have a 20% fee, the next 200k have a 10% fee, etc. If you play with this parameters there might be a win-win scenario for everybody. I wonder if Apple will propose something before EU or USA governments start looking deeper into the problem. I'm guessing Apple and Google lobbyist are measuring the temperature of Congress right now to see how to proceed.

programmarchy 6y ago

Don’t like Apple? Just build your own multinational global corporate hegemonic superpower, bro.

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mstolpm 6y ago

In my opinion, developers do have the right to articulate critics - be it towards Apple or any other gatekeeper. Just stopping to use/develop for a platform isn't enough. However, I feel the discussion often misses a central point when it is focused on "developers" against "Apple" (or be it Google): the interest of the customer. Of course, a developer wants to maximize return, as wants Apple. But what about the users? As a user, I love discounts on iTunes gift cards. I love Apple handling subscriptions instead of a developer I don't know. I choose iOS because of the perceived better support and lifetime value (and perhaps even the feel of some security and privacy, but of course, one can argue about that). And I even like the editorial content of the AppStore, which is some form of marketing but also a form of recommendation. As a customer, the AppStore is much more than a simple storefront, some sometimes wonky review processing and some servers and payment processing: it is a 360-degree-experience. Sometimes, as a customer I'm frustrated by the AppStore as well, but I would not buy my apps at a developers site. I even buy Mac Apps in the AppStore if I can, for similar reasons. As a developer, I sometimes hate myself for not giving other developers more than 60 or 70 percent of the share. But on the other hand, I remember the old days when software was sold on CDROMs and was only available at Frys and other large electronics/computer shops. Getting your software listed there cost much much more than 30 percent ... and you had to prepay all these expenses as the developer/publisher.

fbelzile 6y ago
Exactly. We had a choice to go buy it from Frys -OR- other stores like Best Buy -OR- from the developer themselves. There is no choice with iOS. A band that I like released a CD. I buy a CD from one of their live shows. I should have the right to play the CD on my CD player without having to pay 30% of all CD sales to the maker of the CD player. I don't mind paying a 30% cut to a store that made it more convenient for me to buy the CD (even if the store is owned by the CD player manufacturer). The problem here is that I shouldn't HAVE to go to that ONE CD store to buy ALL of my CD's.
jonny_eh 6y ago
Should Apple ban non App Store apps from Macs too? Doesn't your argument extend to computers? Why would phones or tablets be different.

miniyarov 6y ago

Apple is just using its position and over-protecting their app store by bringing more bureaucracy to for developers. In my case, when I submitted https://zudvpn.com https://zudvpn.com to their app store, they require me to be a business entity because they require all VPN apps to be a business entity. Their argument is that VPN apps should not log their users, however, there is no proof that public VPN apps won't log the users.

paultopia 6y ago

Easy to say, were Android not a complete dumpster fire of an OS. Stop using the iPhone and... buy into an ecosystem where every phone manufacturer installs random crapware on your device, google gets to spy on you, and whether or not you get security updates is a game of Russian roulette? Nah.

coronadisaster 6y ago

That's what I have been doing for more than 20 years... Apple didn't really ever change, not even when Steve Jobs died. Too many anti-user rules...

elvecinodeabajo 6y ago

Apple a monopoly? Letting Google become the monopoly? Once again Linux is forgotten in the scene and Linux community means nothing. Stop taking profits as a reference, there's a world beyond your iPhone.

hinkley 6y ago

I am a long-time Apple customer, but my first reaction to this title was, "well I've never used cigarettes, does that mean I can't 'whine' about them?" There is, to an extent, 'second hand smoke' in any industry with a dominant player who doesn't agree with your sense of ethics. The App Store and its imitators have changed the landscape of software that is available to you and I. I didn't run to OS X so much as I ran away from the chaos and aggravation of custom drivers and kernel compiles for Linux laptops (compiling on a subnotebook is quite painful), and doing tech support for friends & family, so the pickiness of the App Store solves a huge pain point that I am willing to compromise on other things to get. That it's a compromise means that the dissenters have a point, it's just not enough for me. When you are trying to keep conceptual coherence in a thing, you have to reject a lot of ideas that would be really cool to do. It doesn't mean people aren't entitled to grieve, and it doesn't mean that you will always pick the correct winners ("why did my idea get rejected but your stupid ideas 1, 2, and 3 were included?"), and in some cases the bigger person would encourage someone to 'spin off' that idea. If the market of ideas gets too constrained then it's bad for everyone. I suppose you could say that I want them to win, but only as long as that doesn't mean that everybody else has to lose. Like Chrome beating Microsoft without taking out Firefox (whups). We are not very good as consumers at ensuring that.

hellofunk 6y ago

> I know that the devices are pretty and feel nice and maybe your friends all have one and you want to signal that you’re one of the crowd, but it’s not worth it. This is when the author lost me. That’s not why I or many others own Apple devices.

chappi42 6y ago

Google has not a similar model as Apple, alternative stores are possible. These rotten apple gangsters need to be stopped (by legislation). A huge fine (50 billions) is in order! It's not only about the 30 % extortion fee but also e.g. Phone Story. A member of a platform duopoly should be disallowed to uniquely control the single access point.

jonny_eh 6y ago
> Google has not a similar model as Apple, alternative stores are possible. They also allow custom payment methods within apps distributed via Google Play. See Apple Music on Android.

nisten 6y ago

30% is extemely steep and I think if it was 15% hardly anyone would complain. This is just my opinion, but a 30% tax is there because they provide something that the competition doesn't. And that is automated security updates by default for at least 5 years and user friendly app permission management where I really can trust my settings to provide me privacy by default. You will not get that from Google, they barely support their own devices for more than 3 years, I still have no idea if advertisers are allowed to read my gmail or not. I remember recently a friend getting an old ipad mini with a nice screen but poor cpu specs, 1gb ram. And guess what, it ran fine, it's getting security and feature updates the same day as every other apple device. TouchID worked, everything actually just worked I can trust that thing my bank account. And recently I found my old Nexus 7 with amazing specs, quad core , 4gb ram, 1920:1200 screen and now I have to do bootloader & operating system surgery just to get the thing to work. Everytime I've heard of someone get their bank account hacked it usually has started with a text sent to an out of date android phone. For that reason alone I can't recommend a non-technical person to use android unless they understand security or it's on a brand new Pixel device. If I'm building and deploying software and I want to have the piece of mind that all my users are running it on a secure platform that at least tries to respect their privacy my best choice is an iOS device and for that Apple wants a 3rd of my revenue.

flaxton 6y ago

I love it when someone tries to tell me what I should like or do. I don’t care if you like Apple or not. I happen to like them, not everything of course, but overall yes. And you’re advocating limiting their success? They, like all of us, can succeed or fail in America. They are successful because people like their products and software. Duh. Jealousy does not suit you very well. Don’t get me wrong, I like Android and Linux too, I’m an expert on Linux myself. But there’s a reason I use an iPhone, iPad Pro and MacBook Pro. It’s called convenience and productivity. And I like it! Who basically invented the App Store? And now you don’t like that they make money on it? Your whole article just strikes me as sour grapes.

annoyingnoob 6y ago

As if Google/Android or any other phone is different/better...

RandomBacon 6y ago

This post was just removed from HN's front page.

Razengan 6y ago

Brace yourself; it’s the yearly wave of Apple-negging just before every WWDC.

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type0 6y ago